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Ira Winderman came out and said it -- that the price the Bulls would have to pay for Dwight Howard creates problems similar to those of the Knicks. That any price that ends with Howard as a Bull is a long-term net positive is not a self-evident claim.
The common counter-point is simple -- that the Bulls' status quo is to consistently fall a step short, barring elements out of their control (health of the Heat and aggressiveness of other front offices playing catch-up in the meantime).
Winderman's point is a simple master-of-the-obvious that ought not be marginalized: if the Bulls can't essentially re-build a team to be better with Dwight than without him, paying the high price is a waste:
The point being that all-for-one can work and the Bulls, with Derrick Rose and Dwight Howard and anyone, would be as good as anything in the league this side of the Heat.
But that's the rub, they just might be that right now, anyway.
Start peeling layers from arguably the league's best chemistry and the Bulls wouldn't be the Bulls, at least "these" Bulls anymore.
It is one thing to unload Carlos Boozer (no one is taking), another to start pushing chips such as Joakim Noah, Luol Deng, Taj Gibson, Omer Asik to the middle of the table.
The Knicks went all in last season and this season appear lost because of it.
[...]
But the Bulls are ahead of both those teams already, and in cashing in for Howard could cash out on a good thing already in place.
Nuggets GM Masai Ujiri gambled hard on taking so long to trade Carmelo Anthony. He risked the price he could demand plummeting out of the universal knowledge that the Nuggets were in a dilemma of trading their franchise player or losing him for nothing. When the market rationale was to not let such a scarce amount of trade partners regressively lowball their offers to prey on desperation, Ujiri aggressively shopped Anthony to any and all suitors to field competitive offers that actually drove up the price to acquire 'Melo; and the Knicks paid a huge price on what was supposed to be an easy-breezy take.
Now, the Knicks stand at 8-14 with 'Melo, 22 games into this season, after starting 13-9 in so many games without him last season. Though the move isn't a lateral one, as the Knicks had nothing for which to live but mediocrity before 'Melo and now have an attractive destination and Tyson Chandler, the Bulls' status quo has much higher potential than those pre-'Melo Knicks. And, therefore, more to lose with a lateral move that risks handcuffing their wiggle room to build upon a Bulls team with Howard.
I can only plead humility on this topic of conversation and say that I'm not sure what the correct decision is for the Bulls. And this is because there isn't any reason to believe the already aggressive Magic GM, Otis Smith, won't take a page out of Ujiri's book and drive a bargain so tough to force no team to easily press that button and execute a deal.
There are ways for a Boozer or Noah deal to work with other pieces, including the Charlotte draft pick, to match up with Howard's salary in order to make a favorable deal in accordance with the league's regulations. But the Bulls aren't the only team in the NBA; and the other suitors are in greater states of disarray, slowly trending downward, or more pieces short of contending (Lakers, Nets, Clippers, Mavericks) that they're in less risky positions to make better offers than the safer ones from the Bulls.
Add in that it's pretty uncontroversial that Smith will demand whoever takes Howard also take Hedo Turkoglu and the money adds up in ways that the pieces necessary for the Bulls to execute a deal re-creates the Bulls into an unknown element of the league. This compared to being a known contender right now.
That said, the conventional wisdom in the NBA is that you get the best player you can one at a time, minimizing the amount of players you absolutely need to over-perform in order to contend for and win a championship. The Heat, Knicks, and Clippers are operating that way; and they're all better off now than when each team began these aggressive missions, while the Cavs, Hornets, and Raptors are struggling for relevancy.
Smith sees all of this and knowing that he can be the Nuggets will keep him from becoming the Hornets. And that equals a sell-it-all offer from anyone to acquire Howard.
Also, think of what the team who acquires Howard will be. Wouldn't they pretty much be more like the Knicks than the Bulls would? So who cares if the Lakers further deplete themselves for Howard; or the Nets give more up, adding to what they already gave up for Deron Williams; or the Clippers get more dangerous on paper with Vinny Del Negro still coaching them; or the Mavericks get him without coming any closer to solving their age problem, assuming that Smith is looking for players on the other side of 30? Do any of these scenarios potentially threaten the Bulls, compared to taking on the risk of paying a high price for Howard themselves?
2 recs | 288 comments
Melo's just not that great of a player.
How are the Knicks better off?
Matt Zakrowski - February 3, 2012
In the end what did the nuggs get?
Gallinari and mosgov for Anthony….I think anyone makes that trade. Chandlers not in Denver this year, deprive gone to Portland….
Denver is good bc of the pieces they had that keep getting better not what they got from new York. The Knicks are not good (I don’t think they’re bad yet) bc they have no Pg and it seems they misjudged toney Douglas)…
The Melo trade in the end is a slam dunk for the Knicks they need to find a Pg but they wouldn’t have kept Felton or Chandler anyway…
Melo also ain’t in Howards league…
majoyenrac - February 4, 2012 via mobile
Sorry the iPhone screwed up
Deprive was supposed to be Felton not sure what happened there
majoyenrac - February 4, 2012 via mobile
2 points
A) As many people, including Matt Zakrowski above, have mentioned, Howard’s a hell of a lot better than Melo, so the situations just don’t compare. Also, Rose is way better than Amare, and most importantly, Rose and Howard complement each other far better than Melo and Amare do.
B) Even though the Knicks aren’t contenders, they’re still a better team now compared to before they traded for Melo. They weren’t winning a title around Felton, Amare, Landry Fields, Gallo, and Ronny Turiaf. The Knicks aren’t winning a title this year, but I don’t see how you can reason that trading for Melo was a bad idea.
Poloplaya14 - February 3, 2012
they were a better team before they traded for melo
they werent going to win the title, but they could have gotten melo through the FA by 2011! they should have waited. Trading for melo was a bad idea b.c the players they gave up was too much for a player I would say is not even close to top 5. Hell, i would prob put him borderline top 10.
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
Agreed
He essentially said straight up that he would sign there in the offseason. The Knicks fell for the trap that he would re-sign in Denver for more money. Denver would have likely (and grudgingly) agreed to a sing-and-trade anyway after the season.
Survival Impaired - February 3, 2012
Dang it
*sign-and-trade. Though a sing-and-trade sounds intriguing…
Survival Impaired - February 3, 2012
What's odd is...
That the Knicks and Nuggets both actually have better rosters now than before the trade.
But at this time last year, I’d say neither team was top four in their conference. With George Karl, either roster is very dangerous. Mike
D’Antoni’s the one who sucks.Alex Sonty - February 4, 2012
If the front office has shown us anything
They will not over pay for a player
J Theory - February 3, 2012 via mobile
Umm....
Poloplaya14 - February 3, 2012
in trades.... lol
J Theory - February 3, 2012 via mobile
I detest that smile.
crackedcactus - February 4, 2012
Also
Poloplaya14 - February 3, 2012
I don't think it's coincidental that Pax's hairline took a major hit ever since that picture was taken
Juiceboxjerry - February 3, 2012
yeah, wow.
it’s not like it was that long ago.
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
One more for the road
Poloplaya14 - February 3, 2012
Also
They paid a salary to Jannero Pargo
tuluse - February 3, 2012
eh
I thought the hinrich deal was good, considering. In hindsight … not so great, but eh.
Prevenge - February 3, 2012
ever notice that Kirk's pit hair looks a lot like something? Can't exactly put my finger on it....
Fukudometer - February 3, 2012
Why the fuck did you make us look at this.
docks - February 4, 2012
lol
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
Seriously, what is going on here?
Juiceboxjerry - February 4, 2012
dude, that looks like a nasty ass tumor
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
nasty ass benign tumor*
gotta becareful otherwise that can be offensive…
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
.
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
spoiler: where I got the hair
Sorry, had a few dark beers last night.
Fukudometer - February 4, 2012
Hi guys!
The infamous Ron Lord Have Mercer
paxson43 - February 3, 2012
dont forget E-ROB!!!
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
That was a different front office
Poloplaya14 - February 3, 2012
Oh, sorry.
This game is less fun.
paxson43 - February 3, 2012
jus adds more humor to the worse signings...
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
ron was actually decent.
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
hi guys, dont forget me!
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
Flava Flav?
And how the hell did John Starks play for the Bulls? I hope he slapped himself after suiting up the first time in red.
BCs71 - February 3, 2012
lol didn't he get booed by bulls fans in the few times he suited up??
Jaina - February 3, 2012
better?
Fukudometer - February 3, 2012
wait, that one's still in beta
here’s the final draft:
Fukudometer - February 3, 2012
Yeeeahh Booi!!
mjtig - February 4, 2012
gotta do it
Belize - February 3, 2012
Crazy thing...
That is not photoshopped. They actually dropped streamers!
Dionysus2.0 - February 4, 2012
if that was his first home game
that was one of my favorite games ever. I was young(er) and (even more) stupid
your friendly BullsBlogger - February 4, 2012
Lol
I remember that game.
chicity773 - February 4, 2012
please don't tell me you were a jalen rose fan, matt.
they’ll take the site away from you.
MarketMaker - February 4, 2012
Greatest Rose in Bulls history at the time.
chapuforyou - February 4, 2012
seriously
this thread kinda makes one review the whole “JR is cheap” thing
JustAnotherFan - February 4, 2012
There were good moves, too!
chapuforyou - February 4, 2012
NO-SEE-OHHHHH-NEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
paxson43 - February 4, 2012
ughh
tst29 - February 4, 2012
I think the mistake Winderman makes is comparing it to the Melo situation
which is fairly unique in terms of trading for a “superstar”. First of all, it’s debatable whether Melo is even a superstar level player (sorry Sin). Second of all, the fit with him and Stoudemire is not a good one, and when you compound that with the lack of talent on the rest of the roster, their failure wasn’t exactly something that came as a complete surprise.
Pairing Howard and Rose is entirely different. I’d equate it more to what happened when the Heat traded for Shaq (only with both parties in this situation coming into their prime, as opposed to one, Shaq, on the downturn).
I just don’t see how anyone could think the Bulls trading for Howard would be anything less than an amazing move. As much as we may love this team, and the players, this roster is far from perfect.
That being said, Dwight Howard is a flaky douchebag. And if he gets his wish, and ends up with the Nets, I hope his knees fall off while he’s playing a game of naked Twister with Deron Williams.
Juiceboxjerry - February 3, 2012
Pairing Rose and Howard is MILES different from Melo and STAT....
It’s where his point is all wrong and I don’t really get into personnel.
The comparison is valid in the market and how a superstar can manipulate it; and how a GM can manipulate it when that superstar is under contract.
Alex Sonty - February 4, 2012
good points, and Coach Thibs>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....
>>> Coach Dantoni. Well, maybe not that much really but I like defensive minded coaches. Coach Thibs would make the new additions conform to his style and they would blend in with Rose and Howard well. I still think the Bulls should not do it if they have to give up to much.
mjtig - February 4, 2012
LMFAO, at least you did not say you want him to get in a car accident, but I agree this would be great. (me off day, I have been drinkin some this mornin).
mjtig - February 4, 2012
More like the 2000s Lakers than the Knicks
Howard and Rose is more comparable to Shaq and Kobe than to Melo and Amare. You have two guys who are arguably the MVP of the league on one team rather than two guys who are more around the 10-11 range.
Also worth noting that the Bulls would have plenty of pieces left. Say they trade Deng, Noah, Asik, Mirotic, Charlotte pick for Howard + Turkoglu
New roster:
PG: Rose
SG: Hamilton
SF: Brewer
PF: Boozer
C: Howard
Bench: Watson, Turkoglu, Korver, Gibson, Butler
That team is still awfully fricken deep. They aren’t exactly sitting there with a bare cupboard or anything.
dougthonus - February 3, 2012
Agreed, but the key is that they have Rose on the team
“Depth” is relative to how good your best players are. That’s what has hurt Bulls’ teams in the past, and what would hurt teams like Philly or Indiana if they made a trade for a superstar. When your success is based on the contributions of multiple players, and you don’t have a number one guy, it’s hard to trade for another player without sacrificing the thing that made your team so good in the first place
(also, why the hell was there no Bulls Beat podcast this week???)
Juiceboxjerry - February 3, 2012
Actually I should clarify
You can still have a deep team without a superstar, but that depth takes a gigantic hit when you have to make a big trade.
The Bulls might be deep, but their roster looks better as a result of playing with Rose. Without Rose, no one would be saying “Wow, the Bulls have a deep team”
Juiceboxjerry - February 3, 2012
exactly this is what I've been saying
Plus they could avoid the mistakes shaq and kobe made and keep their ego in check for a decade of dominance
sin - February 3, 2012
yeah, i dont think dwights ego is at the level of shaq
and rose is like the anti-kobe.
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
His ego isnt as big
But Dwight seems dumber
T.Moore - February 4, 2012
really? so far, shaq on tnt has been giving superman a run for his stupidity, lol
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
Well
Dumber in what city he wants to play for…The nets really?
T.Moore - February 4, 2012
rose might actually have an ego. its just well hidden
i dont see why else he wouldnt openly recruit lebron and now the same with dwight
and also there was that vid this year earlier of him saying motherfucker to someone on the twolves after he hit that big 3
sin - February 4, 2012
I know why
Because he isnt you?
T.Moore - February 4, 2012
oh im sure he has an ego dude, but not at the level of kobe
and yes, that motherfucker would be rubio! however, unlike kobe, he does a better job not being a whiny bitch on not getting a foul on every damn drive…
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
Only time Rose really whines about a call
is when it’s valid. Like him being hit upside the head….And then the “That’s some ole bullshit” comes lol
T.Moore - February 4, 2012
i actually think rose does have kobe's ego
but hes also humble about it.
he might not openly say it but he has an ego i think. i think hes got that im the man and this is my team and im going to lead them to a title myself mentality, which is good but can also hurt
sin - February 4, 2012
interesting...you may be right now that i think bout it
no wonder kobe likes rose. It hink thats why he gave him pointers on developing a post-up game.
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
there's a difference between having an ego
which we all have, and letting it dictate your actions.
Judge Mental - February 4, 2012
That actually does look like a pretty good team.
At first was so against this all-in for Howard move, but lately we’ve looked so much like last years Bulls, even in the games we win, and last years Bulls didn’t work.
Ideally I would love to play out this year without Howard, then if we still lose go all-in for him, but obviously we don’t have that luxury.
Do it!!!!!!!!!
Micdiddy - February 3, 2012
I keep seeing this proposed lineup with Howard but we need to be fair
Having a 34 year old in Hamilton who can’t even be depended on now is a big deal. And even if he gets healthy for the playoffs, how dependable is this guy going forward really. No we make this trade, we’re thin at SF and SG and I think that’s a bigger issue than many realize.
Dils - February 3, 2012
We're really only thin at SG.
Hedo, Brewer and Korver are all true 3’s and can easily share that role, not to mention Jimmy going 4 deep.
When it comes to SG Korver and Brewer can easily back up Hamilton.
Besides, have you watched Hamilton this year? He’s clearly not too old and has been depended on and has played pretty good in most games.
Micdiddy - February 3, 2012
I forgot Watson.
He takes SG minutes all the time anyway and can expand his role at that spot of necessary.
We’re basically exactly as deep as before in the 123, just a little less talented.
It’s losing Asik here that worries me, but we can sign Pryz and it’s a downgrade but definitely worth it.
Micdiddy - February 3, 2012
Brewer is not a true 3, he's a true 2.
Don’t let his lack of ideal dribbling fool you. He has always really been a shooting guard.
dantheman3k - February 4, 2012
Ur the man Doug!
Ira wouldn’t want to see the Bulls get Howard. That would be the Heat worst case scenario. Rose and Howard would be unstoppable.
illwill - February 3, 2012 via iPhone app
when i see this lineup
then i realize that maybe the proposed deal isn’t unreasonable. i do have some reservations about brew starting full time at the 3, since watching him get bullied by some of these guys this week is showing he’s really better suited toward guarding 2s. he’s been doing ok, but the offensive game we’ve seen from him at the beginning of the season is gone because he’s taxed on the defensive end imo.
but really… i mean really. this is obviously a great lineup. but i won’t be heartbroken if it doesn’t happen either. and obviously you only do it if dwight signs an extension. if he doesn’t… then the whole point is moot anyway.
Jaina - February 3, 2012
There's certainly a somewhat reasonable argument to be made
for trading for Howard even without a firm commitment from him.
On the one hand, if the Bulls put themselves in the category of teams willing to risk renting Howard, it may lessen the pool and the competition; thereby allowing the Bulls to potentially obtain Howard without giving up quite as much.
New Jersey strikes me as the only other team willing to risk a Howard trade with or without an extension, with their offer probably being something like Lopez+Brooks+picks. My point is, if the Bulls can beat that offer (Noah+Charlotte pick+?? and not take back Hedo), it may be worth the risk.
I’m not saying I’m completely sold on the idea, but it’s not totally crazy either. On the other hand, if Howard walks, Noah plus whatever else we would give up would be very difficult to replace, which makes it a pretty gutsy move.
bryield - February 3, 2012
well, this was just about that proposed deal
that, and what i’ve read indicates that the bulls aren’t willing to rent. maybe they should. i actually have said in the past i’d be willing to – but i wouldn’t be willing to rent him on the proposed deal. any deal that was a rental would have to be just noah and yeah, maybe the charlotte pick and filler if need be. i would definitely refuse to trade deng in that deal.
Jaina - February 3, 2012
There's no reason to trade for Howard without a commitment.
Howard knows how good the Bulls are and how good they can be with him.
If he doesn’t say he’ll commit now, he’s saying that KNOWING they could make the finals or even win this year.
If that’s the case, what could change his mind? Nothing. Clearly contending for a championship is actually not the most important thing for him or else Jersey wouldn’t be first on his list.
Weather isn’t most important either or again Jersey is not on that list.
We just have to admit there’s something else guiding his decisions that we don’t know about, but excludes Chicago for some reason.
Micdiddy - February 3, 2012
I don't think that's right
Look at it from Orlando’s point of view. All teams who want Howard are competing to give them the best offer for him. Teams that he’s willing to sign an extension with will offer more than teams that he won’t sign with, or at least hasn’t said he would. If we’re (still) in the latter category, then as you said we’d offer less…making us a worse deal for Orlando. I doubt they’d even talk to us until all possible deals with teams on his wish list fall through.
SidM - February 4, 2012
You're right, the offer (without an extension) would be worse, for sure.
But there was a report out yesterday (don’t have the links, sorry) that Howard has taken the Lakers off his list of teams he’ll sign an extension with. If that’s true, with Dallas and New Jersey as the only remaining teams on his “wish list,” the Bulls’ offer may not have to be ‘great’ to obtain Howard without a long term commitment from him.
Again, I’m not subscribing to the idea, but if the Bulls could obtain Howard as a rental and not give up as much in return, they may stand a really great chance of winning the title this year, which could make it worth the risk. Admittedly, though, there are a lot of ‘ifs’ in this scenario.
bryield - February 4, 2012
Also, one more point.
If New Jersey and Dallas decide to wait until the offseason to sign Howard as a free agent (NJ may pull the trigger anyway), then the potential trade destinations to his wish list teams will be exhausted.
Orlando will then be faced with a very real possibility of having to trade Howard for something or let him walk in the offseason, in which case trading him for a worse deal to a team as a rental is better than getting nothing in return.
bryield - February 4, 2012
Right...
That is the scenario that happened with Chris Bosh…the Raptors could have traded him during the season for something of value, but then signed and traded him to Miami for very little in value.
Dionysus2.0 - February 4, 2012
Brewer would be the most concerning part of that lineup
Whether it’s guarding 2s or 3s I just don’t think he can keep up the huge minutes. He’s just more suited to coming off the bench for short stints where he can expend a lot of energy in a short amount of time.
Survival Impaired - February 3, 2012
he did average over 30 min a game
for a couple seasons in utah – so he has shown he can do it consistently. but he’s not cut out for luol’s minutes – i think that stretch of 4 38+ min games was really killer for him.
Jaina - February 3, 2012
No one is cut out for Luol's minutes
Other than Lu, and maybe Derrick. But you’re probably right, 30 minutes a night or so would probably be manageable for him if Thibs rotated the 3 spot a bit. But we know how the rotations tend to go…
Survival Impaired - February 3, 2012
it doesn't look bad.....
until one realizes turkoglu or korver would be guarding lebron or wade when boozer is already guarding bosh.
stop the madness already! howard’s ass would be in foul trouble half the playoff series, and the other half, he (or derrick, jk) would be missing key late fts.
howard is not shaq, so this doesn’t compare to lakers. no comparison to the knicks and melo either – do compare it to orlando though – but why turn into the magic when you’re already the better team?
who will stop howard on the heat, you ask? answer: the whole team, that’s who.
p.s.: didn’t thonus call beasley a no-brainer, once upon a time?
marionette - February 3, 2012
Howards teams played Lebron fairly wrll
With turkey guarding him… And we’d likely still have either a Noah or taj to help team d next to howard
majoyenrac - February 4, 2012 via mobile
Who will stop Howrad: the whole team (?)
Okay, fine. I’ll grant you that. That leaves exactly no team to stop Derrick Rose.
Unless you said, wait, no check that, who stops Derrick Rose? Oh, wait, I know, the whole fucking team again! . Point is, with Howard and Rose on the floor you have two guys that could actually warrant the undivided attention of the other team.
Dogfishhead - February 4, 2012
you got it right, mack
marionette - February 4, 2012
Jimmy Butler...
Lebron stopper.
In all seriousness, Jason Kidd guarded Lebron last year in the finals when Stevenson was not in the game…
Dionysus2.0 - February 4, 2012
Doug I'm curious how you feel about using some of these assets to get Iguodala instead
Assuming he’s still on the trading block, wouldn’t it make more sense to use fewer of our assets to get a better upgrade at the position of most need?
Our frontcourt is already one of the best in the league, and our current solution at SG is a stopgap at best. I understand that Dwight >>>>>> Iguodala, but is the difference of Dwight vs Noah comparable to Rip vs Iguodala (this argument would’ve worked even better with Bogans)
I also mentioned before the season that Iguodala would provide an added benefit for the Bulls in particular because he could be used as insurance in the case of a likely Deng injury, while playing both the 2 and 3; past performance is the greatest predictor of the future and I think there’s a low probability that Deng will ever replicate the minutes he did last year.
Lastly, I think a lot of people are making the same mistake we did with the Baby Bulls in overvaluing our own assets instead of pairing them and cashing them in for something (or anything for that matter).
I understand Mirotic has massive potential but he is no sure thing; people were saying even better things about Darko before he came over and he’s been around a 12 PER center for his career.
The same can be said for the Charlotte pick; so many things have to happen right for the pick to reach it’s full value; not only does Charlotte have to stink for 4 more years, the Bulls also have to get the pick in a strong draft, not mess up the actual pick, and hope the pick is NBA ready quickly enough or isn’t injury prone for the Bulls to remain relevant.
slowmotion - February 4, 2012
Also trading for Iguodala has additional benefits
because we don’t need to take on an albatross contract (Turkoglu) and probably don’t have to trade all of our assets at once.
It’s all a moot point though if Iguodala’s not on the block anymore with Philly’s sudden relevancy.
slowmotion - February 4, 2012
What would be a proposal to acquire Iguodala?
What would the Bulls have to give?
SCKSChief - February 7, 2012
You're lowballing Smith.
That’s my point. How do we assume he’s getting lowballed for Howard. Your same logic suggests Smith is better off going the Laker route and taking Bynum.
It’s Deng, Noah, Taj, CHA pick at least, assuming Smith only wants to couple the Turkoglu contract with Dwight. Denver unloaded more. Are you saying Orlando can’t with someone else?
Alex Sonty - February 4, 2012
Orlando only can trade w/ the teams Howard is willing to go too
its not a real bidding contest. Its not clear that Howard would want to play in Chicago, but assuming that the Bulls are on his list, the competition seems to come down to Chicago, NJ, Lakers, New York, Clippers and Dallas. If the Bulls are willing to give up Asik/Noah/Deng/Mirotic/Charlotte pick I don’t know if any of the other teams on Howard’s list can beat that offer w/o giving up a superstar player. Bynum alone is not greater than the Bulls offer, its not even close. NJ has nothing. Dallas has Beabouis and…?? The Clippers would have to include Griffin to beat the Bulls offer; I don’t think Bledsoe, Jordan and picks does it. I don’t believe they’d give up Blake for Howard.
If it comes down to a bidding war, it seems to me the only way the Lakers and Knicks can beat the Bulls is by offering both of their big men (chandler/amare or bynum/Gasol) respectively. If that happens, it happens. But it isn’t a slam dunk.
I think this all for naught anyway, eventually Howard will force his way to the top 1 or 2 places on his list. And it won’t matter what the actual offer is b/c Orlando will be forced to accept it or risk losing him at the end of the season for nothing.
Basketball Smurf - February 4, 2012
Don't forget Przybilla...
F Brewer/Turkoglu/Butler
F Boozer/Gibson
C Howard/Przybilla
G Hamilton/Korver
G Rose/Watson
RoseFTW - February 4, 2012
Brewer starts over Hedo?
JustAnotherFan - February 4, 2012
hedo
is hot garbage
Judge Mental - February 4, 2012
Brewer is no champion himself
JustAnotherFan - February 4, 2012
agreed
but at least he ain’t lazy
Judge Mental - February 4, 2012
Probably
but only because of defense. He’s definitely the better defender. But who knows; Hedo is 6’10. Thibs might make use of his size in his defensive system.
Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. - February 4, 2012
... I said more than just 'Probably.'
But I forgot what I just said. It was freaky to see the new comment alert at the bottom right say ‘Dr. Handsome, D.D.S.’ I wondered if someone hijacked my account while I was logged in!
Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. - February 4, 2012
There's risk whith anything you do when it comes to sports, whether it be Free Agency,
or a trade, and the Bulls would take a hit depth wise, but Howard brings a lot of what they need into one player. He’s a low post threat, has tons of athleticism, and is one of, if not the best defenders in the league. The Bulls could win a title with who they have now, but a lot has to go right. With Howard, it doesn’t decrease there chances for a title, but increase it a lot more. Rose and Howard would be in their primes for a while, and the role players left would be enough to leave them as a contender.
This wouldn’t be the same type of trade as the Knicks trade. There’s only so much those other teams can really give for Howard. I don’t think the Bulls would have to overpay. There not as in a desperate situation as the other teams, but they actually have good players and assets to trade not making Orlando completely irrelevant.
BlackStar - February 3, 2012
It’s obvious Boozer is untouchable as in no one wants him. But he won’t be amnestied because he isn’t worth paying NOT to play
The big question revolves around if we have to take Turkoglu, which I believe we would. If so, I’m pretty sure we have to include Noah and Deng just for salaries alone, then add in, what, Gibson, Korver/Watson/Brewer and a pick or 2? Then the question becomes, is it worth it to take the slight defensive and huge offensive advantage of D12 over Noah to sacrifice Deng for Turk?
Then again, if we can trade for Howard alone (unlikely since other teams can take both), I would assume a deal of Noah, Gibson, Korver/Brewer/Watson and a pick or 2 would work and would be very good for us.
Either way I don’t see a trade happening for us.
MichaelClutchtree - February 3, 2012
At worst the Bulls would be giving up depth
But the return ( the best center in the league – stays healthy, 20-20 guy, been to a championship, young) is easily worth the players the Bulls would be losing.
And quite frankly, I question the motives of a columnist from Miami.
RogersPark Kris - February 3, 2012
been to a championship series*
RogersPark Kris - February 3, 2012
Yeah - this coming from a Miami columnist is worthy of an eyebrow raise,
though I’m not sure what the motive would be — to jump-start a PR campaign to influence the Bulls FO? To be fair, I think Wilbon wrote a column recently making a similar argument, but with a greater focus on not breaking up team chemistry as opposed to a Rose-Howard combo not working.
bryield - February 3, 2012
His motive would be to make sure two of the best young players at their position
don’t team up.
And I don’t agree with the chemistry argument because chemistry is not enough to win a championship.
RogersPark Kris - February 3, 2012
Right - I understand your point.
But I can’t imagine why a Miami sports column would have any effect on whether Rose and Howard end up on the same team.
bryield - February 3, 2012
Why even make the column at all?
Why would he care about the Bulls best intentions?
RogersPark Kris - February 3, 2012
I don't know.
Why does Skip Bayless show up to work and say outlandish things? I suppose it’s because he gets a paycheck to do so.
bryield - February 3, 2012
Miami is in the same state as Orlando
maybe that’s why? There might be as many Magic fans in Miami as Heat fans for all we know
SidM - February 3, 2012
i think howard would fit nicely with the bulls
i think people calling him a jackass is going way to far. Sure, hes a dumbass, but not a jackass. However, the biggest issue is whether he wants to resign with the bulls and reports have been saying that he still gunnin for NJ…errr.Brooklyn Nets. If he wants to enjoy the next 5-10 yrs without a ring, he can def have a go at it!!!
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
A lot of his asshattery would disappear IMO
Waaaaay different culture here than Orlando. Although if he goes to the Nets…all bets are off for him heh
Joninja - February 3, 2012
As if anyone working for Chicago or Orlando gives a shit what a beat reporter thinks?
Ozzie Montana - February 3, 2012
It's not about measuring the impact of the column
It’s about even writing this article.
He’s not impartial and he doesn’t have the Bulls best intentions in mind.
RogersPark Kris - February 3, 2012
You're grasping at some straws here.
Ozzie Montana - February 3, 2012
Really?
Well I’m glad he took time off from his daily Heat columns to write an impartial article dictating what the Bulls should do in easily this organizations biggest decision since Phil Jackson’s retirement.
RogersPark Kris - February 3, 2012
I believe his piece warrants critical thinking
Regardless of his bias or objectivity.
Joninja - February 3, 2012
Giving up Deng is a big problem
Yes, we know Deng is injury prone, and isn’t getting younger.
But a starting front line of Boozer and Turkoglu defensively would be a nightmare. For us.
JHBowden - February 3, 2012
That's the part that's going to be hard to overcome or accept.
Two horribly overpaid aging players like an albatross around your neck. You’d have to amnesty one of those guys to have a chance of fielding a championship team in my mind.
Sandberg's evil twin - February 3, 2012
its not so bad when whoever blows past them runs into the three time defensive player of the year
sin - February 3, 2012
NYK thought the same thing...
…players would just blow by Melo and Amare into Chandler.
Agreed, Chandler certainly isn’t Dwight Howard. But a good team takes an opposing center acting like a free safety away from the basket by spacing the floor with bigs that can shoot.
The Heat would have an easy time against Howard and Boozer by spacing the floor with Bosh and Haslem. This leaves the middle open for Lebron to work against… Turkoglu. The Bulls do have crisp defensive rotations, but I question how that’s going to work with not one, but two awful defenders with lousy contracts on the floor.
And remember, we wouldn’t be able to amnesty Turkoglu, since he would be acquired after 2011, so we’d be stuck with his smelly contract for a long time. So much for a supporting cast.
JHBowden - February 3, 2012
his contract only runs like two more years doesnt it?
and besides all those orlando teams have always been good defensively regardless of the players out there which is a testament to howard’s greatness on defense
sin - February 3, 2012
i'm about as big a deng fan a exists
and i got no problem giving up deng
what i do have a problem with is giving up the whole damn team of today AND future
marionette - February 3, 2012
yeah, i wouldnt call the trading howard to the bulls like melo to the knicks
howard is a top 5 player and melo isnt even close to top 5.
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
Until Howard adds the Bulls to his 'wish list' of extension teams
I’m not sure this discussion matters very much, if for no other reason than sending off the reported package (Noah, Deng, Charlotte pick, Mirotic, maybe Asik) is simply too steep a price for the off chance that Howard resigns.
However, I am genuinely torn about whether the Bulls actually have enough to consistently get past Miami over the next few seasons. I know there is a divergence of opinion around here about this, and I’m not entirely sure where I stand on it.
At some point the arguments that “the Bulls played Miami close” or “if the Bulls just rebound/defend/limit turnovers better” simply turn into excuses. I don’t think we’re there yet, though, which makes the idea of trading for Howard without an extension a really gutsy call.
bryield - February 3, 2012
I understand the hesitation, but this doesn't compare to the Knicks situation.
For one thing Thibs’ doesn’t have any real offensive philosophy that would be fractured with the addition of a new player. And while there will be growing pains if Rose was paired up with such a lane clogger in the paint I really don’t see how those two running a pick and roll or simply posting up Howard to draw double teams fails to work.
The real issue here would be losing Deng and getting someone who isn’t even close in terms of defensive ability and endurance in return. From what we’ve seen on the wing the past week I’m afraid of a long-term defense without Deng.
Ozzie Montana - February 3, 2012
Wouldn't the Defense Howard brings, mitigate some of the Defense they lose w/o Deng?
BlackStar - February 3, 2012
some, but Howard can't block everything
Brigade17 - February 3, 2012
Yeah, but Hedo doesn't necessarily have to start. He could come off the bench.
Have Brewer and Butler rotate at the 2 and 3. They’re no where near the level of Deng defensively, but I think they’d be better than Hedo.
BlackStar - February 3, 2012
Still need smart perimeter defenders who can recover on time.
Ozzie Montana - February 3, 2012
that’s what i said above (but everyone ignored cause im a fucking idiot)
the problem would become (since we’d likely have turk) having boozer AND turk on the floor at the same time.
god damn it i wish boozer was playing at even a decent level and we could deal him (even with deng). could you imagine a frontcourt of noah and howard with asik or gibson backing them up? the other teams’ entire frontcourts and the key would be neutralized for 3/4 of the game
MichaelClutchtree - February 3, 2012
kill our perimeter D for interior D?
Maybe it would end up a wash overall, but perimeter heavy teams would romp us
SidM - February 3, 2012
yes it would
the Magic went to the finals with Hedo and Nelson on the perimeter and Lewis playing the 4. That is with Hedo guarding lebron… If you can keep Taj to pair with Howard you have the top defensive frontcourt in the league.
Basketball Smurf - February 3, 2012
fuck these miami columnists...
Damn, are all analysts/columnists etc. IQ below the nations average?!!
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
Winderman is a shill for the Heat.
Everything about his so-called argument reeks of fear that the Bulls might out-superstar his Heat.
alec - February 3, 2012
lol, i would rather listen to jay mariotti than this toolbag.
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
didnt he fondle someone and get arrested?
Brigade17 - February 3, 2012
yeah, lmao
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
Good god, this is what brings you out of hiatus?
Ozzie Montana - February 3, 2012
The problem with Winderman's argument is that no one gives a shit--no shits, not any shits--about second place.
In fact, that’s the crux of the issue and it dovetails off of something JBJ said above. If the FO is convinced that, as currently constructed, we’ simply aren’t running the Heat in a seven game series then in lieu of hanging around and waiting for the inevitable Miami decline (and this decline could hasten for a variety of reasons, sure) it should aggressively pursue the idea of having two of the top five players in the league. In fact, right now, not even Miami cab make that claim as they do not have two of the top five players in the league. As i see it, if you wanted to start a team tomorrow and had your pick of the NBA’s roster, there’s Lebron, Dwight, and Drose, the order of which are worthy of no shits on my part either.
So, fuck a bunch of “good things.” Good things are for people that don’t have better things.
Dogfishhead - February 3, 2012
Honey Badger? Is that you?
bryield - February 3, 2012
yup
Juiceboxjerry - February 3, 2012
man melo was debatable but i don't understand how dwight is
The only debate should be whether or not you gamble without a guarantee from him because otherwise if he wants to come we should be sending a private jet to bring him here asap
sin - February 3, 2012
We win the championship with him
and Howard won’t be going ANYWHERE
Joninja - February 3, 2012
Unless he does.
He could…you know, to be superstar celebrity in New York or L.A.
Dionysus2.0 - February 4, 2012
the problem with ira's article is that
MIAMI DID THE SAME FREAKIN THING TO GET BOSH AND LEBRON. And they had far less. New york essentially abandoned the system they were winning with to obtain melo and create a new system. The bulls defensive system would remain the same, no…it would become better with howard. The bulls offense would change essentially, but only for the better. It would howard posting up instead of boozer, it would be boozer playing that high screen and roll instead of noah.
A team of rose/rip/brewer/boozer/howard with cj/korver/hedo/taj/asik is a spectacular starting 5 with still a deep bench.
Yea…im not buying it at all, we arent the knicks, we arent getting a similar player to rose at another position (wade and lebron-superstars who like to dominate ball, cant shoot long range, and melo and amare-no d, crap rebounding, but can fill it up) rose and howard compliment each other in every way. PLUS both are mvp-esque players…..
piccolomair - February 3, 2012
Isn't this her point?
They had far less to lose.
tuluse - February 3, 2012
Unless we are convinced we're the best team in the league as currenlty constructed
It’s a silly point to make.
Dogfishhead - February 3, 2012
I don't think you have to be that good
What if you think you have a 30-40% chance at a finals victory. Maybe you’re only the 2nd or 3rd best team in the NBA, but close enough that with a touch of luck you think you can win it all?
tuluse - February 3, 2012
ummm...
Otis Smith is one of the worst gms in the league. The main competitors, the Lakers and Nets, don’t have great assets. I’m not so sure the Bulls would have to pay this ghastly sum you are alluding they would have to pay. At what price do you think it is worth to acquire Dwight Howard? There is no reason to get all philosophical about it. Is Noah, Asik and Deng too much? Is the rumored deal Noah, Deng and future assets too much?
Of course there is going to be a point where it is too much. The Knicks probably had that point as well. But I don’t believe the Bulls would make a deal where they gave up “everything.” Its all about what price you are willing to pay.
Basketball Smurf - February 3, 2012
I think a more realistic question is
what price is too high to acquire Howard without a commitment to an extension? I think that’s where the Bulls face a greater risk than the teams actually on Howard’s list.
bryield - February 3, 2012
if he does not say anything signing to an extension, fuck him
dont even do the trade. He needs to literally come out and tell smith or whoeevr the fuck is in charge of his camp that i would resign with the bulls, PERIOD!
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
And your first point seems to be an important factor in holding up this process
Per Ken Berger’s column:
bryield - February 3, 2012
Also All Star game.
He definitely won’t be traded until after that.
SRQman - February 3, 2012
exactly right. it doesn't make sense to get into a bidding war for a guy who
won’t resign with you.
Basketball Smurf - February 3, 2012
he traded for gilbert
so lets not set our expectations too high on what he will give up dwight for
pb&j - February 4, 2012
Get the trade done already, i sick of talking about it, get it done gar!
occubull - February 3, 2012
im with you
thought about this watching them tonight and last night…they just dont have pieces. I like our pieces.
plus i would be happier if they did a simple trade with anyone for boozer
Belize - February 3, 2012
My thoughts on the situation...
Brigade17 - February 3, 2012
Here's my thing about this trade...
It seems that anyone who’s against this deal is framed as nuts because OBVIOUSLY having Howard makes us unstoppable. But there are two things that I think factor in here.
1.) If the Bulls were a contender right now stuck in basketball hell like say the Hawks or Pacers , I could understand blowing the whole thing up and going for Howard, But that’s not the case. Hell we’re the best team in the East record wise and despite what people think, have a fair shot of taking down the Heat as constituted. Many here are already acknowledging that getting Howard may push us back a year right? So what are we really talking about? I’m not sure I want to blow off the 2011-12 season of a Championship contender knowing we still have to rebuild the roster going forward.
2.)Howard is great and I’ll get killed for this but I’ll say it… What type of Center is Howard? Is he Olajuwan or Shaq? You know a Center that can demand a double team and you can run your offense through. A guy that can go off offensively and carry a team for stretches. Or is he a David Robinson/Mutumbo type. A Center that can be a beast on defense and can get his points close to the rim and off of lobs and put backs? What I’m saying is that I’m not 100% sure getting Howard with Rose with a depleted roster guarantees you anything and gets you pass the Heat (Which is the goal right?) considering that his biggest strengths is already our greatest strengths. Hell we’ll still need another scorer. You could make the argument that if you had Eric Gordon at SG on this current roster you’d be better than a blown up roster with Howard.
Look Howard is a great player and I’ll get killed by many reading this. But I don’t think it’s insane to look at the roster we’d have left and come to the conclusion that we may actually be worse off in the short run with Howard. If you’re telling me it’s worth coughing up competing for a title this year and possibly next year then fine. But I for one would like to see what this roster can do this season.
Dils - February 3, 2012
Yes, it will hurt in the short run.
And Miami has not looked unbeatable so far this season. But in the long run, the teams with multiple superstars do better in the playoffs. Furthermore, in the long run the Bulls cannot keep the present team together.
Tim S. - February 3, 2012
To clarify
The Bulls can keep the present team together, such as signing Taj and Asik to extensions, though it will likely require them to go into the luxury tax to do so.
bryield - February 3, 2012
From past quotes though
It seems like Reinsdorf would be more likely to pay the tax for a guy like Howard rather than backups. Though it’s obviously all speculation.
Survival Impaired - February 3, 2012
Right
but (I think) Tim S.‘s point was that the Bulls cannot keep the current team together, which isn’t necessary true assuming (::rolls eyes::) JR is willing to pay the luxury tax for front court depth.
bryield - February 3, 2012
Why
don’t you think he would pay the luxury tax? The luxury tax has been around since 1999. The only time the Bulls have been legit contenders is these last two seasons.
squadron supreme - February 3, 2012
I suppose if the Bulls use the amnesty clause on Boozer in the next 2 years
JR might pay the tax to extend Taj and Omer. But, I’ll believe it when I see it.
bryield - February 3, 2012
Not
worrying about the tax how much would you honestly pay to keep Taj and Omer.
squadron supreme - February 3, 2012
That's how I feel too.
It just seems unlikely that he would spend the money for two backups, especially in light of the bloated offers both are likely to receive from other teams that want them as starters.
Survival Impaired - February 3, 2012
I think Taj would get a decent size offer I just can't see it for Omer
squadron supreme - February 3, 2012
Really?
A 7 footer that defends pretty well? It’s more about the current lack of supply of true centers in the league. I’m not saying he would necessarily be worth a big contract but I can at least see him getting some fairly large offers from other teams.
Survival Impaired - February 3, 2012
If he does get a decent offer
that probably means around 7 million plus from another team to be their starter. It wouldn’t make sense for the Bulls to match that offer for a backup.
squadron supreme - February 3, 2012
Exactly
Survival Impaired - February 3, 2012
To add to that
I find it hard to believe JR would pay the tax to keep the current team together as constructed if they fail to win a championship, or at the very least get to the finals.
bryield - February 3, 2012
That's reasonable though
even teams that win titles have changes in backups and role players.
squadron supreme - February 3, 2012
I understand that multiple superstars win in the playoffs more
But that isn’t the whole story. It’s that thought that has these teams sitting in neutral waiting for more help like NJ and the Knicks. There are a million teams who had multiple stars that won nothing. But what is the current Bulls team’s reality? The reality is that if we beat the Heat, we have a chance to win a title.
I think that’s the point of the article. He’s saying.. what are you really trying to achieve if you’re already at that point already. You’re trying to be a contender for a title every year and at best a dynasty. Ok well what’s stopping the Bulls from getting a SG if Hamilton doesn’t work this year and being in the same position next year? Getting Howard doesn’t guarantee you of being as good as you are already.
Dils - February 3, 2012
Talk of dynasty only makes sense
with Howard on the team.
Dogfishhead - February 3, 2012
BS
So Howard is the only way to a dynasty? See that’s what I’m talking about. People make it seem like it’s all or nothing without Howard. Like this current Bulls team can’t function unless it has Howard.
Dils - February 3, 2012
yeah, i really hate when people say that
if anything, we need a bench scorer (i know, i have said this multiple times, but its a important point that people need to grasp). The reason why i think the mavs won was not jus cause of dirk and tysons disease, but alot of credit goess to jason terry. We dont really need a player caliber like terry, but someone who can come in for rip or rose and help the bench mob out with some scoring.
Geo4MVP - February 3, 2012
You mean like Korver and CJ?
rick o'shay - February 4, 2012
No, that's not what I'm saying.
The bulls can function just fine without him. Remember last year? We made it all the way to the ECF. In fact, we’ll probably make it there again! Your using the word dynasty too loosely if you think it can be applied to this team as currently constructed. We’re getting ahead of ourselves here. I’m not saying that a Rose, Howard plus anything plus three limp-dicks is title town either.
The point is, though, that if the FO makes this deal, they’ve got to consider the ceiling on a team with Howard and Rose higher than where it’s at now.
Dogfishhead - February 3, 2012
then we really do become New San Antonio and...
Ronnie Brewer gets to play Sean Elliot…
inkybreath - February 3, 2012
Yeah but Howard isn't as good as Duncan
Because Robinson didn’t win a damn thing with Rod Strickland running point (And yes I know Rose is better than Strickland). They won nothing until they got a difference maker there like Duncan.
Dils - February 3, 2012
But that's the point
two superstars. Duncan and Robinson. A second world-class player automatically is classified as a “difference maker,” it doesn’t have to be the EXACT SAME MOLD as previous title-winning teams.
You say Howard isn’t as good as Robinson and THAT was the reason he didn’t win alone, and he only won once Duncan came, but that’s exactly the debate here.Two superstars.
docks - February 4, 2012
Agreed
We’re one of the best teams in the NBA. I like our players and want to see this group have a chance to win it all. I think they can do it. Miami is not invincible and the West doesn’t have any clear-cut dominators. We have as much of a chance to win the championship as anyone else in the NBA. I’d feel differently if Howard wasn’t such a clown or if our team was underperforming, but he is and we’re not.
Stay Chisel - February 3, 2012
WHAT FUCKING DILS SAID!
Dwight needs us more than we need him. That’s a fact
T.Moore - February 3, 2012
This is nonsense
Juiceboxjerry - February 3, 2012
Point proven
Dils - February 4, 2012
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa....
Please re-iterate what you think of David Robinson’s offense. Because it’s miles away from what I think you think it was.
Alex Sonty - February 4, 2012
I'm confused. What do you mean?
I’m referring to Dwight’s offensive game which is more comparative to David Robinson than a Center that can score in different facets like Olajawon or with the dominance of Shaq. Not sure what you thought I meant by Robinson’s game.
Dils - February 4, 2012
How the hell does Dwight's offense compare to David Robinson, as opposed to Shaq and Hakeem?
And how are Shaq and Hakeem in the same type, but Robinson so separated from Hakeem?
Are you not aware that Robinson was a hell of a baseline shooter?
Alex Sonty - February 4, 2012
i think howard does not even match shaq, robinson, or hakeem (i acutally have hakeem as the 2nd greatest center of all time)
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
howard game is more like shaq than anyone else
albeit some of the differences, they are similar players.
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
I really don't see how Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson or Howard's games compare to anyone.
All four are/were completely different centers.
Alex Sonty - February 4, 2012
yeah, ur right, i was jus watching some of shaqs highlights...
hes a very unique center. Man, this new generation of centers is fuckin terrible compared to the 90s, lol.
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
Wow I didn't know using a comp for a player meant it had to be
the exact same attributes down the line. This isn’t even about Robinson, who I do think is better than Howard all around. It’s about who Howard compares most to. Period. Howard’s closest comp as Centers are concerned is David Robinson. I’m not even sure that I’m the only person that’s ever said that.
Dils - February 4, 2012
you know David Robinson scored like 73 points in a game and came close to leading the league in scoring a couple times right?
Rose Colored Goggles - February 4, 2012
He won the scoring title in 93-94.
And he scored 71 in that last game of the season to best Shaq. Crazy that that was 18 years ago, I feel old…
chicity773 - February 4, 2012
There's nothing wrong with using comparisons.
But the intial prmise was off. Mutumbo avereged under 10.0 ppg for his entire carreer. The most he ever averaged in one season was 16.6. Robinson averaged of 20.0ppg ten times in his career.
There’s no such thing as a Robinson-Mutombo mold, they don’t share the same living space.
Dogfishhead - February 4, 2012
jesus, what the fuck is a robinson/mutumbo type dils?
those guys arent even close to the same player.
what kind of center is howard? well, hes a center who has as many FTAs as FGAs. hes a center who locks down the paint. hes a center who can create his shot in the low post and thereby synergizes perfectly with our starting PF. hes one hell of a No. 2 option. hes 26. he doesnt miss games. he loves derrick rose.
i dont even understand how anyone could be against this. winning a title takes a lot of luck. do you want one or two chances to hit a buzzer beater, or do you want 6 or 7? thats the proposition here.
TheMoon - February 4, 2012
A Robinson/Mutumbo type
Is a Center that strongest attributes is his defense. That’s Howard. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t score. It doesn’t mean he isn’t a force. God forgive me for including Mutumbo for the sake of this discussion or for trying to find a historic Center that Howard compares most to. Which is Robinson.
What does Howard creating his shot in the low post mean anyway? Hell he isn’t even as good creating his own shot as Bynum. Also who cares how many FTA Howard has if he can’t shoot freethrows? Hell the reason he has so many is that teams want him at the line, not because he’s some great offensive tactician that forces himself there with great shots.
I understand some don’t understand why many would be against the deal. That’s fine. But I’m merely pointing out the risks in making a deal that clears out your frontcourt and leaves you thin while lowering your chances of getting a title this year. Something that no one who’s for the trade seems to deny. And don’t give me assumptions like
. Who Boozer? Yeah Ok. No wonder he’s so untradeable. If that’s the case, perhaps the Magic should trade for him to put with Howard so they can keep him. All I’m saying is that what you’re saying is a slam dunk to me is more of a presumption and I don’t think it’s nuts to look at this team, this year and to think they can get it done without him.Dils - February 4, 2012
I agree. Also, he (DH) does not have a lot of touch on those close turnarounds, hooks, ect.
He has gotten better with post moves beginning last year or the year before (finally), but the touch is not there consistently and he still has to try to bull his way to the rim to get his points. Centers with size can make it difficult on him with the that at times and when he is off, the bricks start coming. Bynum needs to get better at double teams, but he has a nice turnaround jump shot with touch when he can get it off.
mjtig - February 4, 2012
almost no team is ever a slam dunk to win a title. but a rose-howard team would definitely
be a slam dunk to compete for a title for the next 6-7 years. the current team is only a slam dunk for 1 or 2 years. thats the decision. you say you are pointing out risks in trading for howard, but i see not trading for him as significantly more risky— almost reckless really— in terms of winning a title during the derrick rose era.
TheMoon - February 4, 2012
How do you figure we're a slam dunk for 1 to 2 years?
Our superstar would be a rookie this year if he went to college all 4 years. Our starting Center is what? 26? Deng is 26. Taj and Asik are in their mid 20s. That’s your core right there. I personally don’t look at Boozer as a core piece. So why is that core only a slam dunk for a 1-2 year run while getting Howard is a guarantee for a 6-7 year run?
Dils - February 4, 2012
rose, noah, deng, asik and taj.
thats two current bench players and two guys who play the same position. also 2 guys with spotty injury histories. so thats why im less optimistic about this core than the one with the 2 top 5 players one of whom is mr indestructible.
TheMoon - February 4, 2012
I think you need to look at Robinson's stats dude
he was a hell of a scorer for years in the NBA
Rose Colored Goggles - February 4, 2012
yeah, he had a nice turnaround jump shot with touch...
and was an overall much better post player than Howard
mjtig - February 4, 2012
I know this
and I do think Robinson is better. I never said he wasn’t. I was looking for a Center that I believe Howard compares the most to in terms of Howard’s strengths. Both were great athletic defenders and even though Robinson was the better offensive player, I don’t think either he or Howard were Centers who could playmake and have an offense ran through them. That’s why I compared the two. Not to slander Robinson because I do believe he was better than Howard now.
Dils - February 4, 2012
I'm just saying the comparison isn't valid at all
Robinson was a great defender, he led the league in blocks once, rebounds once, and defensive rating a few times. Howard leads the league in those categories every single year (less competition, but still). Robinson was a two-way player, but if anything he was his team’s entire offense for most of his career. He averaged 5 assists per game one year!
If you’re looking for a modern comparison to Robinson, I would say Bynum might be the poor man’s version.
As for Howard, I would lean more towards Moses Malone or a bigger version of Alonzo Mourning.
Rose Colored Goggles - February 4, 2012
and also Howard's just not in Robinson's league as a player overall, yet
Rose Colored Goggles - February 4, 2012
also, i really dont see the robinson/howard comp.
robinson was a highly polished 7’1’’ guy who almost scored and passed like a guard. he was a good but not great rebounder.
on the other hand, moses malone was a hell of a rebounder, didnt pass much, didnt shoot that well, didnt have a very impressive offensive repetoir, but succeeded because he was such a relentless physical force. the comp for howard is moses malone. you only said robinson because it would make people think that if howard is like robinson then maybe howard wont win a title in his prime either. which is silly.
also robinson almost immediately won a title after he became the 2nd scoring option on his team, which is what howard would be here.
TheMoon - February 4, 2012
No I compared the two for the reasons above
I can could have just compared him to Mutumbo (which would not have been fair to Howard) and been done with it. I know why I compared the two.
Dils - February 4, 2012
well mutumbo is a pretty weak comp too.
hes moses malone, dils.
TheMoon - February 4, 2012
regardless of the reason howard gets to the line
getting to the line helps the bulls. The more the bigs of the opposition get in foul trouble, the less aggressive they become, and that helps rose when he penetrates the lane. How many times has rose barely missed shots and we’ve had noah and (at times) boozer try to tip it back in, and how many times do you wish “man if they only went up stronger” well howard would go up stronger. Howard is a great compliment to rose’s game, mainly because hes the kind of superstar that DOESNT demand domination of the ball.
piccolomair - February 4, 2012
You still try to get Dwight if you can
1) You’re not just blowing up the team for the hell of it, you’re doing it to get a top 5 player in the league. That kind of opportunity doesn’t come along too often. Also, how do we know the Bulls won’t become the type of team that is stuck in 2nd round playoff hell in a few years?
2) Howard is like a more athletic and and better version of Alonzo Mourning. I think that’s a great #2 on any team. But relative to the other centers in the league right now, he’s more like a mini-Shaq to be honest.
It’s not like the Bulls can’t do other moves in the offseason after getting Dwight Howard to improve their team. They can amnesty Boozer eventually. Whichever players of Brewer/Korver/Watson are left after the trade, they can not pick up their options and go after someone else. They can try to pick up JR Smith in March. There’s also the possibility for another creative trade or some smart signings of ring-chasing vets. It won’t hurt the team that much in the short term but might be (probably would be) a lot better in the long term.
berzerkulous - February 4, 2012
Robinson had a pretty complete offensive game and was a perennial 20 pt scorer with a dependable jumper. I wouldn’t classify him with Mutombo by any means
C Smoove - February 4, 2012
The best deal
any team could offer is from the Bulls. As has been mentioned in another thread Noah, Deng, Mirotic and Charlottes pick is more than enough for Howard. Lets not forget Orlando also wants to move Turkoglu in any deal that’s made. The Bulls don’t have to blow anything up. This is a buyers market in terms of getting Dwight. Dallas can’t offer anything. New Jersey has Lopez who is hurt and Orlando doesn’t want to do a Bynum for Howard deal straight up. If he really wants to come here he’ll force his way here. If not we ride with who we have knowing with or without him the Bulls are still a championship caliber team.
squadron supreme - February 3, 2012
the only offer i see being able to beat ours is if lakers cave and offer gasol AND bynum
you could argue that gasol and bynum is a better package than ours depending on whether youd like picks or immediate star power
sin - February 3, 2012
That would be fools gold for the lakers
That roster with Kobe and Howard is not going to win a title. They wouldn’t have any significant money to bring in impact free agents and no assets to trade.
squadron supreme - February 3, 2012
i dunnno
dwight just needs a competent wing player and he can do some damage if they just surround him with cheap shooters
sin - February 4, 2012
The Chicago Magic
docks - February 4, 2012
....or LA Magic.
I should read comments, first.
docks - February 4, 2012
you got it right, either way
marionette - February 4, 2012
kobe at this age is still better than any wing player dwight has ever played with
sin - February 4, 2012
kobe is still a top 5 player imo.
i have him after durant at 5.
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
No
Top 5 chucker
Trey23 - February 4, 2012
Do you just spend your time ranking things?
Hawkeyes - February 4, 2012
that's only the 4th worst attack he's received on here
SidM - February 4, 2012
Howard would average around 28 and 14 for this team, I think.
Dogfishhead - February 4, 2012
No because
When Booz says “GIMME DAT!” He means “GIMMIE DAT!” He will kill his own team to get boards!
T.Moore - February 4, 2012
This is crazy.
Rose is better than Carmelo and Amare. Howard is better than Carmelo and Amare.
Dunker Von Smashalot - February 4, 2012
Howard is not a great player
he relies on athletism, hes basically a bigger tyrus
To win Championships you need guile, selflessness, willpower, a green lantern ring, batarangs, or humblebots.
Trey23 - February 4, 2012
i agree, guile would totally be a lock
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
Chun Li did have man-ish sized thighs.
RogersPark Kris - February 4, 2012
Guile was is a cool character, but he always gets smoked by Ryu, Ken, or Sagat (those who know how to use them receptively)
mjtig - February 4, 2012
a competent guile player is a gigantic pain in the ass.
i’ve played a pretty high level ken for about 15 years, and a turtling guile (or nash) with skill can be a nightmare.
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
fair enough
mjtig - February 4, 2012
I got to ask, who has the most raw ability out of all the SF characters?
Sagat?
mjtig - February 4, 2012
The ladies would probably say Dhalsim.
RogersPark Kris - February 4, 2012
LMFAO....
mjtig - February 4, 2012
it depends on what version
i stopped paying attention to tier lists awhile ago. believe it or not, there’s a lot of consensus dhalsim picks. i hate him though.
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
Ryu turns evil and fucks up Sagat
He also won 2 or 3 of the tournaments. Stupid shotokan.
tuluse - February 4, 2012
im a beast with colonol william guile
aggressive defense, defensive offense…yea i whup ass
piccolomair - February 4, 2012
great match up against the ultra aggressive Ken
mjtig - February 4, 2012
my uncle who got me into street fighter
uses ken, and i constantly kick his butt…the way i use guile is i have a bunch of set up moves, i like throwing weak sonic booms and then use dashes to follow the slow moving projectile if the opponent jumps, i upper cut followed by a barage of ground combos and flash kicks. If the opponent blocks, i let the sonic boom hit and then go into a grab and get the guy in a corner for pummeling. If the guy is ken or ryu and throws a projecticle to cancel, i immediately charge another sonic boom and force the issue….best thing about charge characters is that they are constantly in block to special mode….yea…i got that shit down
piccolomair - February 4, 2012
with ryu, its all about staying back and spam rising dragon fist and haduken left and right
i usually stay back and usually play off counter attacks. Ryu is a short range fighter but if you get into his zone, you’re finished. Ryu from street fighter alpha uses combination of spamming hadouken to keep the opponent dodging/blocking. Against guile, you need to keep provide him little room as possible to fight. I usually push back players using guile and rather not attack him head on considering hes the best counter fighter in street fighter.
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
the thing with zoning is seeing who can be patient enough to keep it up.
a lot of guys, including myself, get irritated with it and want to rush in.
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
* respectively
mjtig - February 4, 2012
awwww
no picture anymore whyyyyyyyyyy
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
My computer must be bugged
It looks that you wrote that Dwight is a bigger tyrus
I’m sure it isn’t right
JustAnotherFan - February 4, 2012
What the fuck is wrong with you people?
Ozzie Montana - February 4, 2012
CHEMISTRY
ThorCo - February 4, 2012
i don't know about you, but "chemistry" solves most of my problems.
obnoxious american - February 4, 2012
Lol!
Dils - February 4, 2012
what do you mean "you people"?
Trey23 - February 4, 2012
and touch on short turnarounds, hooks, ect. when DH is off, he can break the backboard with the bricks he throws up
mjtig - February 4, 2012
In all seriousness
Real good defensive teams can neutralize Howard, rather easily, not to mention get him in foul trouble.
Oh who am i kidding, I’d take him for any players, Deng, Noah, Asik, draft picks, except Butler (untouchable)
Trey23 - February 4, 2012
I believe you mean future MVP Butler, right?
The guy who Rose is going to cede control of the team to so that he can lead us into the next Bulls dynasty?
Hawkeyes - February 4, 2012
Also, I was at the Garden for the Knicks game on Thursday
and Butler really did look pretty good in person. If he were on a struggling team and getting more minutes he would be doing very well for a rookie.
Hawkeyes - February 4, 2012
Winderman is just scared
With Howard we would destroy Miami and their index
JustAnotherFan - February 4, 2012
lololol
TheMoon - February 4, 2012
I wouldn't mind it so much
if Jimmy Butler steps in and shows he’s a more than capable defender. He guarded Melo pretty well the other night. I wouldn’t mind him eventually starting if it meant efficient offense and the ability to at least make opponents work on offense. Add a 3pt shot to his game, and I’d be a lot more comfortable with that trade.
NerdVernacular - February 4, 2012
Can somebody get Wilson Chandler on the phone?
And an accountant to figure out how to make the money work….
hitlesswonder - February 4, 2012
That would be amazing.
Unfortunately, he’s restricted, and there have been indications that the Nuggets want to work out a long term deal with him
Juiceboxjerry - February 4, 2012
dude, no, jr smith
you bring that killah to the bulls, we are set!
Geo4MVP - February 4, 2012
I am late to the party apparently, but this is why this argument is dumb
I get the argument. The Bulls might have a championship team now. However, here is the issue. Let’s assume that they are not as good as the Heat. What easy upgrade would get the Bulls over the hump? Let’s assume Boozer is our weak link. You would need an available free agent, willing to play for the MLE that is solidly better than Boozer (or Hamilton or whoever you think the weak link is). Those types of players are rarely available, mostly because the ones that are better want more money.
Ok, now let’s assume the Bulls are basically left with Rose/Hamilton/Brewer/Boozer/Howard. My thought is that that team is better than the Heat. But again, assume we are just not quite there. Now, your weak link is Brewer. Finding a guy who is an upgrade over Brewer is so much easier! Caron Butler is a prime example of a guy that was available and would be an instant upgrade in that example lineup. Bottom line, two stars gives you more flexibility in revamping a roster because you have the best players in the league at 2 positions.
DRoseO1 - February 4, 2012
If the rumored deal
Of deng, Noah, mirotic and charlottes pick is accurate, that would mean we would keep asik (and taj). Taj is pretty important to a team with boozer starting.
But having asik as a backup to Howard is not necessary. We could sign a pryz or something and do just fine.
Those concerned about starting Brewer at the 3 should remember that wr would have a trade chip in asik that would carry huge value on the trade market, yet would wouldn’t miss him if we had Howard. I am confident that we could find an upgrade at the 2 or 3 for asik. Last year reports are we could’ve picked up mayo or Courtney lee if we were willing to give up asik.
It’s hard to give up asik when you have Noah as your starter, but easy to do if Howard is playing 40+ minutes.
tomas21 - February 4, 2012 via mobile
Personally I would give up Asik to keep Mirotc....
I think his ceiling is higher. Why no throw in our Amnesty clause?
crackedcactus - February 4, 2012
Both teams have leverage in this situation.
The Bulls can offer the most to the Magic. I’m sure the Magic front office hates that, but they will have to make the most of it. Dwight WILL be leaving, contrary to their hopes.
However, they have leverage because they could make a deal with another team or just (horrifying option for us) let him walk. Because of those reasons, I think that if any deal gets done it will be a fair one. I would like to cling desperately to Luol and say, “You can’t have him!”….but I would be willing to let him go if they gave us a decent trade.
Some people are saying to give player X,Y,Z,AA, and 2 draft picks….no way. Giving up those first 3 players is more than anyone else could offer. I guess we’ll see how far it goes, but I really do feel that we can almost steal Dwight away.
Brigade17 - February 4, 2012
rumors are Kobe stopped the Howard to Lakers trade
Trey23 - February 4, 2012
Kobe system
mjtig - February 4, 2012
you're welcome...
T.Moore - February 4, 2012
Adidas Team Bulls
ChiTownBallz - February 4, 2012
I'm not saying Butler is as good as Deng
…….but, if we make the proposed trade of Noah, Deng, Mitoic and the CHA pick, many people people have pointed to losing Deng’s defense as the biggest pill to swallow. However, after watching Butler D up Melo and hearing Thibs rave about his D, maybe we already have an in house long-term solution to replacing Deng’s wing defense. If that’s the case, it make this trade even more of a no-brainer. If Butler can step up, we’re still deep on the wing with Rip, Turk, Brewer, Korver and Butler
2lf6reedyt - February 4, 2012
Deng isn't just a defensive specialist
He’s our best all around player, which is why it’s so hard to get rid of him
Option27 - February 4, 2012 via mobile
The thing is that these Bulls are contenders as is for only so long
In that span, we’re banking on the Heat’s misfortunes.
With Howard, you may not win it all this year but at least you have the chance to be dominant for the next decade
Option27 - February 4, 2012 via mobile
I laugh every time I read 'Ira Winderman'
blackoutsox - February 4, 2012
And the drama continues
via RealGM article:
bryield - February 4, 2012
I bet you no one will criticize the Lakers
for not trading for Howard if he doesn’t sign a long term deal but if the Bulls don’t do that they’re considered cheap, scared, or falling in love with the players they have.
squadron supreme - February 4, 2012
It took a long time and some luck but GarPax should love this team.
There are like 4 teams that have a real shot at a championship this year and most years. The Bulls are one of those 4 as constructed for now and the next few years. I’d love to have Howard but it has to be a reasonable offer.
rick o'shay - February 4, 2012
Maybe Kobe's presentation went something like this...
Kobe:’ We’d really love to have you on the Lakers Dwight.’
Dwight:‘I don’t know…I’m kind of thinking of playing in Brooklyn with DWill but i’m just not sure…’
Kobe:’ If you come to the Lakers I promise you won’t have to do anything but defend, rebound, and do all the dirty work. I’ll take care of all the shooting, every game, no matter what. I’ll just shoot and shoot, and you’ll be the best garbage man i’ve ever played with. It’ll be great!’
Dwight:‘Suuure…that sounds…interesting…’
kingles - February 4, 2012
Instead of taking Terk, why not just give them our amnesty clause?
crackedcactus - February 4, 2012
ooo, trading amnesty clauses, thats interesting.
TheMoon - February 4, 2012
The first time I heard "Ira Winderman", I thought she was a female, then I realized it's a butch.
RoseFTW - February 4, 2012
Dwight being a Bull is probably a no go. I would think that the Magics would want too mucn in return if the Bulls would to go for Dwight. They would have to give up a key player and also some bench players. Overall, it would mess up the depth that the Bulls have. They’ll have a good starting 5, but nothing else to back it up.
zeezy2 - February 5, 2012
All I have to say is a few words.
Mvp + Defensive MVP + COY who’s greatest asset is coaching Defense = Rings baby.!
UnBannedVikingholic - February 6, 2012
Gotta add 3rd team
If the Bulls add a third team trying to unload unneeded assets to help in the trade, the trade would be perfectly fair for all parties.The T-wolves for intance. They are in need of solid vets to play with the youth they already have, and they have a couple of players that would benefit other teams that they really dont need, and they need a building block at the C position. I was thinking….
BULLS GET:
C Dwight Howard
PF Ryan Anderson
C Darko Milicic
PG Chris Duhon
MAGIC GET:
C Joakim Noah
PF Carlos Boozer
SF Micheal Beasley
SG/SF Wes Johnson
PG C.J. Watson (arguably better than Jameer)
C Brad Miller
2012 & 2014 first round picks (CHI)
Bobcats protected 1st round pick (CHI)
Rights to Nikola Mirotic
WOLVES GET:
C Omer Asik
SF Hedo Turkoglu
SG J.J. Redick
This is THE BEST deal for all 3 teams. Minny gets a well needed defensive C in Asik as well as dump Brad Miller’s contract. Also gain veteran leadership from Turk and Redick which will help those young guys out immensly. Also makes them a better shooting team. Wes hasnt worked out well for Minny and Beasley isnt in the team’s future plans neither is Darko. This trade WILL make them a playoff team this year and for years to come and still stays under the cap. The Magic add a slew of assets, get young talent, dump Turk’s and Duhon’s contract, get a FL fan favorite in Noah (former Gator), and most importantly stay a competitive team that will still be in the playoffs and Beasley is a stud on offense, and I believe Wes will find his stride and live up to his potential.This deal DESTROYS Bynum and his bad knees, and Lopez and his bad foot or any other deal LAL, DAL, or NJN can offer. The Magic will still be a playoff team with a boatload of assets. Chicago is the big winner of the deal. Any deal where you get Dwight, your most likely the winner. The team gets better and stays young. Dwight also still gets to play with a stretch 4 while adding ryan anderson to create a very lethal PF tandem of Gibson/Anderson. The depth chart would be:
pg. ROSE/Watson/JL3
sg. Hamilton/Korver/Butler
sf. Deng/Brewer
pf. Gibson/R.Andersen/Scalabrine
c. DWIGHT/Milicic/Przbylla(??)(FA)
At the end of the day ALL 3 teams win and reach main goals. Minnys goal of reaching post season and solidifying core building blocks..CHECK. Magics goal of staying good, getting young, stock-piling assets and dumping bad contracts…CHECK. The Bulls goal of beating Miami Heat in playoffs and winning title…DOUBLE CHECK. MIA/OKC or any team cant beat this team in 7. That middle pick and roll is gonna be a problem! If the bulls wanna trade for Howard and stay 10-deep team, they gotta add another team. The Bulls will still be a team average of 25 years old! All the salaries work, lets get it done. Dwight wants to be a star? Come to Chi-City. Wanna build another dynasty Bulls management? GET THIS DEAL DONE. Chicago is a huge market and a great city. Plus rings bring stardom. Period. Everyone wins.
eraserheadc70 - February 6, 2012
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