The Sixers impressive start to the season leading to their league-best point differential has been undoubtedly helped by their easy schedule. But while they may not be yet amongst the league's best, they proved to the Bulls that they're certainly quite good. And more interestingly, a bit of a matchup problem.
A lot was made during the home telecast of the mirror image the Bulls were looking at all night, in that the Doug Collins-led squad was built to defend and hustle on every possession just like the Bulls are known for. But while the Bulls have advantages in shotblocking, scheme, and discipline, the Sixers excel in creating havoc on the perimeter. Using Jrue Holiday and Lou Williams speed, and supplemented by their athletic, long wings, they were able to harass Derrick Rose farther out from the basket than most teams can try while also being able to close out and frustrate the Bulls shooters. The Bulls 2-3 spots were manned by backups Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Korver (yes, I was quite proud of my pre-game tweet), and while they started out hot a combined 5-6 shooting, after 5:42 in the first quarter they combined for 3-10 the rest of the way. Even Korver's makes were long twos, as the Sixers knew to run him off the 3-point line.
The result of that aggressiveness on defense was not only 17 turnovers, but the even worse Sixers-forced turnover. Those same guards and wing finishers, led by Andre Iguodala (also a 'starter' of the fast break, with 2 steals that felt like 9) can run out and make you pay, and in total had 29 points of turnovers in the game. Even in a 4th quarter where Thibs waived the ginger flag and the CJ Watson-helmed unit earned the Bulls some momentum into reducing their deficit, the Sixers would force another turnover and either finish or get fouled, or both.
Derrick Rose single-handedly kept the game close in the first half, looking as outstanding as he had in his previous three 30-point efforts when driving for 8 of the last 10 Bulls points to pull them within 5 to end the 2nd quarter. But outside of that, and for much of the abysmal 11-point third where the Rose-Watson combination was given a try, it'd usually be a long jumper with little second opportunity. Even without two key bigs (Hawes and Vucevic), the Sixers kept the Bulls to an abysmal (especially for them) 20% Offensive Rebound Rate, while allowing the Sixers to get over 27% of the misses on their offensive end. Starting Center Tony Battie had zero of the Sixers defensive rebounds (and it's bad to be Kurt Thomas without the rebounding, yikes), so if you look up and down the boxscore it was again those big, lengthy, and fast Sixers wings who made the difference. And another facet of the game where Deng and Hamilton's absences loomed large.
You'd hope that especially without those two, the Bulls frontcourt could provide production. However, Joakim Noah must've seen his paycheck pre-game as he had only 2 points in his 27 minutes. Boozer fared a bit better and actually made some attempt to score at the rim tonight, but his defense was so atrocious that it was focused on by both the in-game and post-game TV crews. And it made sense, as the Sixers themselves were disciplined enough (10 TOs, and best in the league at that) to focus on it all night as well: often forcing Boozer to move his feet to defend the pick and roll with hilarious/sad results. And if it came to stopping the ball or defending the rim in transition, it was best to just avert your eyes. Plus, I swear I think the mic picked up more of his annoying screams than usual...but maybe I was just biased by the especially-poor performance.
This is why Boozer's held to such a high standard (or just a standard) when it comes to his point output and location: he has to be a plus offensively to mitigate his bad defense. He shot poorly but did have decent production (9 and 9 in 27 minutes), but with both sides of the ball suffering with the Bulls starters out, he has to do more. Noah at least gets some of a pass because he's working on defense not only on his guy but covering for Booz. I mean, Lavoy Allen had 15 points for the Sixers. I honestly did not know who that was, and I'd like to think I keep up on these sorts of things.
Bright side in all of this was that, as mentioned above, Thibs didn't push his starters too much for a lost cause (and Jimmy Butler looks good in lost-cause action, I must say). Rose, Noah, and Boozer were all around 30 minutes tonight and should have both fresh legs and a bad taste in their mouths heading into New York tomorrow. The Knicks may present some different problems, but at least we know the Bulls won't be encountering a stout and in-your-face defense. The Bulls didn't look too great tonight when seeing that effort brought on them for a change.
2 recs | 248 comments
Noah
can’t get a pass. When the sixers went small Young worked Joakim like he was rookie. Allen scored not just on Boozer but Taj as well. NONE of the bigs on the weak side stepped up to cut off penetration to the rim especially after Philadelphia ball handlers turned the corner on pick and roll.
squadron supreme - February 1, 2012
They played bad, nothing has changed.
wrigleyrocker12 - February 1, 2012
what?
windycitywarrior - February 1, 2012
Please tell us more
Like how Dwight wouldn’t help us and how boozer taking jumpers all day is a good thing.
sin - February 1, 2012
shouldnt you be preparing for the ultimate pregame thread?
i expect alot outta this the knicks vs bulls pregame!
Geo4MVP - February 1, 2012
Oh god no...
T.Moore - February 1, 2012
its gonna be fireworks!!
Geo4MVP - February 1, 2012
its going up very soon!!
sin - February 2, 2012
so they've always played bad?
your friendly BullsBlogger - February 1, 2012
Who the fuck is this Lavoy Allen
why did we get torched by an unknown player?!! GAH!
Geo4MVP - February 1, 2012
Lavoy Allen is a 4 year starter (I believe) from Temple University. He’s a really skilled basketball player, but doesn’t have much explosion or speed. I make the comparison to a Greg Monroe type, but not as much athleticism. He’s a solid, intelligent, player that gets the most out of his game but will never be a superstar.
packimop - February 2, 2012
Booz: Nice dunk Iggy! High five!
windycitywarrior - February 1, 2012
recruiting?
gooses - February 1, 2012
If Boozer played to his potential
I don’t think we would be hearing all of the Howard speculation. Boozer’s inconsistent play along with Noah’s (except for the past 10 games, excluding tonight’s clunker).
illwill - February 1, 2012
yeah we would, because Howard is awesome, and anyone that doesn't want him is being dumb
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
* or sentimental
Though I guess, depending on your perspective, permitting sentimentality could be classified as “being dumb.”
jpx7 - February 2, 2012
I'm sentimental. I love our players, but I'd still be an idiot in basketball terms if I wouldn't trade for Howard
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
Just to elaborate: If someone has some sort of personal reason for wanting Noah, or Lu, or whomever to stay
like that person signed an autograph for one of their kids or something, or you’ve followed them their whole career, well I have nothing to say about that. That’s your own personal business, and that’s how you choose to be a fan. I can dig it. BUT, from a purely basketball perspective, in terms of just wins and loses, not wanting to trade for Howard is stupidity
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
agreed, if the bulls were to get howard for deng and noah, i would def be happy getting an elite superstar like howard
however, ill be saddened at the same time b/c deng is one of my all time fav on the bulls.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
Yea, that's sort of my position
Deng and Noah are, without question, my two favorite players on the Bulls.
On the other hand, I sort of loathe Howard’s personality (at least his publicly-promulgated personality); of course, he’s clearly an basketball upgrade to Noah, and may moreover be an upgrade to Noah + Deng.
jpx7 - February 2, 2012
I also *just* last month bought my first Bulls jersey:
Its being a Noah jersey means I have a tangible, $50-stake in Noah’s future with the team.
jpx7 - February 2, 2012
im sort of lucky
i had a feeling we would lose this one just because the current roster is so highly dependant on rose, more than usual, to the point where i dont think rose can continue playing like how he did against miami. Not only that, but i learned about the bulls loss, and five minutes later learned of the heats collapse, which to me is by far worse. We played an actual good team and just were outmatched due to our injuries, they played a centerless team, had a lead, had a healthy roster, and just fumbled it.
Im begining to think the heat are more like the celtics when they won their championship (meaning they are really really good) and share a weakness of incapability of sustaining their high level of play for 4 quarters. The celtics were known to have at least one bad quarter, and not just bad, but dreadful quarter…so they had to really level their opponents right off the bat to sustain the eventual bad 3rd or 4th quarter….
i think the heat are like that as well
piccolomair - February 2, 2012
e.g. heat losing to the bucks
they got kileld in the 4th Q.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
Wait, why are u lucky again?
Option27 - February 2, 2012 via mobile
oh ha i sort of sidetracked
i didnt have to endure the loss for a long period of time before i was hit with some good news that the heat lost. Im not sure how long the miami game lasted after the bulls loss, but it was enough to fill the gamethread with negativity and suffering, and i didnt really go through all that. So while the loss sucks, i dont have to endure watching the loss, feeling it, or contemplating the heat beating us, in some round about way, again. For that i am lucky to be spared the suffering
piccolomair - February 2, 2012
coach skiles ftw!
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
You're a pro at digressions
Stacey_Is_King - February 2, 2012
Bulls are struggling against good teams, and it's a concern
You can say that Deng and Rip are out. But both guys will be out for more than a few more games. And since we lost Deng, the Bulls are 2-3. Two wins against bad teams, three losses against good teams. The Milwaukee fucking Bucks just Jennings’d a win against the Heat after we couldn’t beat them. We got out-Skiles’d by the Pacers and Bucks.
I really hate to say it, but some move might need to be made. We aren’t looking like the team we had last year and quite frankly havn’t looked like that team much this season. The struggles against winning teams is one example of that.
kpd - February 2, 2012
i wouldnt say its a concern (as of right now)
we lost to the griz with a good chunk of players injured, lost to the hawks after a long road trip, and lost to . If they struggled with Deng back in the lineup, then I would be kinda concerned.
I think winning against good teams is really an overrated record. The mavs last yr as well as the heat record against winning teams wasnt that good. Multiple teams in the past who won the title never had the best record against “winning” teams. Not saying its a useless record, but I think you are putting too much value into it.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
true last year's finals teams didn't have excellent marks against top competition
But we already aren’t the favorite, Miami was the favorite last year. I could be wrong, but I feel we need to perform better against winning teams than they did, because we need more wins than they do, because we need home court more than they do.
kpd - February 2, 2012
lets give the bulls a chance with deng healthy (knock on wood) and i would say by end of feb, well see how we r against good teams
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
we beat the bucks though...
Jaina - February 2, 2012
I think he meant 76ers
Fukudometer - February 2, 2012
He's saying after we couldn't beat the Heat.
chicity773 - February 2, 2012
i was referring to
Jaina - February 2, 2012
Watched highlights
You would think that Iggy was lebron with all the traveling he did….Besides being a douche
T.Moore - February 2, 2012
tellin u man, hes prob LeDouches long lost twin brother
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
Iguodouche
JustAnotherFan - February 2, 2012
Stop it. Igoudala is a professional. He rarely beats his chest or stares an opponent down. He’s really level-headed and rarely gets technicals.
packimop - February 2, 2012
and is a douche.
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
i agree with you
fans rip iguodala for being excited about kicking the Bulls ass, but the same people say nothing when Noah is doing six shooters after hitting a jump shot against the Wizards.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
I mean, do you expect any different?
We’re Bulls fans. Being a homer is in the job description.
Stacey_Is_King - February 2, 2012
If any fan called Noah a douche I would totally understand
(Cleveland in special)
JustAnotherFan - February 2, 2012
man they're just a bunch of factories man
Prevenge - February 2, 2012
Yeah, I've always liked him a lot which is what was surprising
Yesterday he did seem like a dick, though. Some of his bullshit was unnecessary
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
that behind the back in the midcourt was totally unecessary
he was showing off… the douche
JustAnotherFan - February 2, 2012
plus he left his feet, it was a frickin travel.
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
yeah, i also thought it was a travel
Jaina - February 2, 2012
I thought it was a fake to be honest
your friendly BullsBlogger - February 2, 2012
It takes a Philly fan to think otherwise
Iggy played big time. He had his LeBron night and he acted like it
Including the douchery
But LeBron is a good player any night can Iggy keep it up to act like that?
And getting Ts has nothing to do with being a douche
JustAnotherFan - February 2, 2012
just cause i love rehashing this argument especially after games like tonight
iggy deng or gay?
personally i have deng 3rd out of that group
sin - February 2, 2012
tbh, you can say gay and deng are almost equal
i would give the slight edge to deng over gay b/.c of his defense. Iggy stats are below both deng and gay, but not by much. Deng on the other hand was starting to do alot better and his stats would be betetr if it wasnt for the injury.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
ill put deng in one, but only by a slight amount over gay...
besides tonight, iggy hasnt been as good as i have seen him before.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
I honestly don't see how you have Gay and Iggy over Deng
oh wait, your scoring SF fetish…
Stacey_Is_King - February 2, 2012
you dont think in terms of over all package athleticism and health
that iggy and gay are both better than deng?
deng is a great defender but his offensive repertoire is lacking while gay and iggy are both good offensive players and capable defenders as well
sin - February 2, 2012
I think you're really splitting hairs between the three
Poloplaya14 - February 2, 2012
depends what you want
Gay is more athletic and better at getting his own shot, Iggy is a better facilitator, and Deng is the best all around player.
so I’d take Deng.
MartyMondays - February 2, 2012
Athleticism and health yes
overall package Deng is first, easily
JustAnotherFan - February 2, 2012
Athleticism only matters if you actually use to actually be better
Deng is actually a touch more efficient than Gay, a better defender, rebounder, turns the ball over less (!), and Thibs has a man crush on him.
tuluse - February 2, 2012
Iguodala is the best perimeter defender in the NBA.
packimop - February 2, 2012
Hmm, he's certainly right near the top
Lebron, Tony Allen, and I think I’d put Lu in there, would all have to be in the conversation
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
It's Tony Allen in my opinion
Stacey_Is_King - February 2, 2012
Gay vs Deng is a tough one
not a big fan of Iggy’s shot selection and jumpshot
trig - February 2, 2012
you could make an argument for any of the 3
if i needed a 1st or 2nd scorer, I’d choose Gay. If I needed a versatile wing defender and competent scorer, I’d choose Deng. If I needed someone who could kind of just be an all purpose garbage man and kind of a wild card on the floor to disrupt other teams, I’d choose Iggy.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
Iggy is the most complete of the three and the guy I'd take.
He’s a fantastic defender, Lebron-level athlete and a great player on the break. Deng is more well-rounded and defensive minded than Gay, but Gay is the better scorer. I could go either way on those two guys.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
Agree. It all depends on what your team needs. If you want a lockdown defender no doubt it’s Iguodala. Plus you have to take into account his passing, he’s been great this year and last year creating in the open court.
packimop - February 2, 2012
most complete of the 3?
he shoots like 30% outside of 3 feet.
Jaina - February 2, 2012
He's a 32.6 percent pt shooter over his career, with 2.7 attempts per game. (Deng is 32.4% on 2.6)
Of the three guys, he’s got the best handles, passing and open court game, though Rudy is breathtaking on the break as well. He’s the best and strongest athlete of the group and with all due respect to Lt. Deng, he’s possibly a better defender as well. Iggy can play the point, take guys off the dribble, post up a little bit. He brings more to the table than Deng or Gay and in my opinion is clearly better than either one of them.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
not what i'm saying.
three feet. not three point shots.
check hoopdata. deng kills him at pretty much every location except at rim, and three pointers. outlier is that this season he is shooting 60% from 10-15 feet, since he hasn’t shot better than 31% there in his career until now.
Jaina - February 2, 2012
(compounded with the fact that deng is shooting poorly from 10-15)
Jaina - February 2, 2012
Maybe it has to do with the fact that Iggy
has always been miscast as a go to scorer in Philly and has had to put up shots that he isn’t good enough to be making. Up until last season when Doug Collins arrived, they were asking him to play like Lebron and be a franchise type player. He was shooting shots he simply couldn’t make. When I watched Iggy in the FIBA games playing as a complimentary piece and not as that guy, it was crazy how good he looked. He was off on the breaks, cutting to the hoop, hitting open J’s when his guy was helping, playing insane defense, etc. If we were to have him instead of Lu, we’d be better off for it IMO.
But Lu’s a really good player too, so it’s not like I’m complaining about him.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
i was just arguing that he's not more complete.
luol is a flat out better shooter than he is from pretty much all ends of the floor. now whether you’d take him over deng because he could fit into a role better, is not the same thing.
Jaina - February 2, 2012
I'm saying that it's not necessarily true that Lu is a better shooter.
Here’s the breakdown for their shooting from different areas with numbers from this season and last season.
(This year %, Last year %, Two years ago5)
At Rim
Iggy: 72, 72.6,68.5
Deng: 62.8, 66.6, 61.2
-Iggy shoots 3 per game, Lu roughly 4.
3-9 Feet
Iggy: 33.3, 27.7, 34.7
Deng: 34.9, 44.4, 47.3
-Iggy shoots 0.6 attempts per game, Lu roughly 2.
10-15 Feet
Iggy: 60, 27.9, 29.
Deng: 20, 28.6, 39.
-Each shoots 1 per game.
16-23 Feet
Iggy: 34,37,39.
Deng: 37,40,40.
-Iggy shoots 4, Deng shoots 5.
Threes
Iggy: 38.6, 33.7, 31.
Deng: 34, 34.5, 38.6
- Each shoots about three.
I only see a real big advantage in Lu’s favor in the 3-9 foot range, and neither shoots there very often anyways. I could reasonably argue that given Lu’s role on his team compared to Iggy’s, Deng gets more open looks than Iggy and therefore really isn’t a better shooter, it’s just that he gets cleaner looks playing off the ball. The numbers bear that out, as Iggy’s AST% is double that of Lu’s, as he’s often there primary creator and ball-handler and has to shoulder the load on offense, at times.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
You're crazy (but we all already knew that).
At the very least, Deng > Gay, and I’d have to say Deng is better than Iguodola as well.
jpx7 - February 2, 2012
the bulls have an underwhelming record against really good eastern teams. of course
the opposite was true last year, so its not clear how much that really matters.
i think the most pressing worries are: 1) literally half the eastern playoff teams seem like they were built specifically to exploit the bulls’ vulnerability (that they only have one ball handler and hes 6’3’’), 2) the bulls have very shaky 3 pt shooting and 3) their highly talented ORBers seem to have an equally formidable talent for not grabbing ORBs against really good teams.
also, thibs got thibsed today.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
Yeah, I think the East is better than people are giving it credit for
I still think we’d fuck up the Pacers, but the Hawks and Sixers are legit. Also, we’re not as good as the juggernaut that we’re being made out to be Nationally. With all our guys healthy, we’re a VERY good team, but I don’t think it’s a great team. I just think people have to be a bit more realistic. We’re as good as anybody, and we can beat anyone in a seven game series, but there’s quite a few teams that could take us out as well
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
i think this team can be great, but again, its the matter of having a healthy team
we need rip rested, no more ocming back prematurely during the healing process. If need be, this team needs to think about getting anothe scorer to compliment the bench mob. particularly a 6th man imo would put us over the top.
Rumors are JR SMith agent is talking to the bulls (from around the horn per Woody Paige), if this is true, paxson must sign him asap! If i were paxson, i would tell Smith “we will sign you to vet min for now, but next yr, we will sign you to a 4 yr deal.” Kinda like “verbal agreement” alluding to next yr. Of course, other teams would also offer smith a contract, but at this pt, all contending teams can only offer vet min. Somewhere maybe around 8 mill a yr is def a fair contract. Thsi would mean the bulls would have to give up brewer and korver, but for a player caliber like JR Smith, i wouldn’t miss them.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
Pretty much agree
Although, I’d go so far as to say that I only see one team the Bulls would lose to in a seven game series, and that’s the Heat. The Bulls are way too good defensively and have enough scoring to get by when healthy. Having the reigning MVP doesn’t hurt either. Rip Hamilton is very underrated. The offense looks about 8 million times better when he is in the lineup, even if he is scoring like shit. He isn’t an isolation scorer, but he is so good coming off screens and then making a quick decision to either shoot, pass, or penetrate off the dribble. Rip also prevents teams from switching a bigger defender on to Rose. Ronnie Brewer is honestly not much more of a threat than Bogans. Even when shooting well, he is so slow off the dribble and takes forever to get his shot off that you can just play help when guarding him. If you switch out Brewer and Hamilton, the Bulls offense would look much better.
The defense is a bit concerning right now, but Boozer was simply awful last night, so I’ll just chalk it up to him.
DRoseO1 - February 2, 2012
dude, im tellin u, deng is the anchor of this defense, not noah
he literally HIDES boozers deficiency on defense. Deng does a very good job not inly on the SF hes guarding but he can ded guard the pf. The defense is not as good with deng out and we need deng healthy asap (knock on wood).
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
Ok, but how many more times does Philly have to convincingly beat us for us to say "Hmm, maybe they could beat us in the playoffs"
I mean, I’m not one of those people that buys into regular season wins completely, but they have straight beat us down the last three times we’ve played them. Yesterday their defense basically made us quit. I don’t buy into the idea that we didn’t bring enough energy. It’s a serious concern at this point imo.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
absolutely. forget a title; its going to be an absolute dogfight just to make it to round 3.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
Meh
Maybe I am just overconfident, but I just don’t see Philly as a big hurdle if healthy. To answer your question, if they beat us with all of the following people in our lineup: Rose,Hamilton,Boozer,Noah,CJ,Taj,Asik, and at least one of Korver or Brewer, then I’ll be nervous. I honestly believe no Hamilton hurt a ton yesterday, especially given that Korver can’t dribble and Brewer is so slow offensively. Even if they beat us without Deng, but we have all of our other core players, then I’ll get concerned.
I am a bit concerned now, but not entirely.
DRoseO1 - February 2, 2012
Boozer has to force himself to put up bigger numbers w/o Deng and Hamilton in
the lineup. He should be salivating at the number of shots he is going to get, but instead he is playing scared.
Boozer in the last 5 w/o Deng is putting up okay offensive numbers. 13.6 pts, 9.2 rebs, 47% fg shooting. But against the Heat, Pacers and Philly, Boozer put up 10 pts per game and shot 14-35, That is completely unacceptable for the guy who is suppose to be your 2nd scoring option. The Bulls aren’t going to win anything of significance with Boozer playing atrociously on defense and than giving us shit on offense. Keep in mind, Indy-Philly-Miami trap Rose at almost every opportunity. So Boozer is getting open shots in these games. He just is incapable of doing anything before the quickness of these teams defenses rotate.
I apologize to Deng for even contemplating that Boozer might be having a better season. He is what I thought he was – a guy who plays his best against the Trevor Booker’s and Erysan Illyasova’s of the world. And you know what, Taj isn’t the answer. His defensive rebounding is pretty poor. I want some Jomer. The Bulls only chance to get where we want them to get is to dominate on the inside defensively and with rebounding. Jomer is the best option at this point, imo.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
Taj is being overrated by alot of BaB'ers and i wish people would yelling "START TAJ!"
im not a boozer fan but im not a boozer basher either. Unlike most boozer bashers, i came to accept boozy is past his prime and will no longer be the same booz we saw earlier last yr. I hope im wrong, but if booz can put up 14-16 ppg and 8-10 rbg, im satisfied. I know those are shitty expectations but booz is no longer OUR 2ND OPTION SCORER, its Lt. Deng.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
i agree...but when Boozer plays shitty defense and cant back it up on Offense.You gotta take him out.
RED_BULL - February 2, 2012
i don't know what being satisfied has to do with it
Boozer has to meet a certain standard for the Bulls to be successful with him in the lineup. When he doesn’t meet that standard than the Bulls suffer and his minutes on the floor hurt more than they help I could care less what he averages, he has to show up in the big games. Deng is not a legit 2nd option scorer. Boozer/Hamilton/Deng need to share that burden. When Deng and Hamilton are out, it falls to Boozer. He has to at least TRY. He has been too content to kick the ball to Brewer, Noah, Korver and Rose – especially in big games.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
and thats how we lost the last 3 games with no Deng,Rip,and Boozer's lack of scoring.
RED_BULL - February 2, 2012
yeah why do people keep acting like this is some kind of grieving process, "I used to be mad at boozer, but
not anymore since ive finally reached acceptance!"
many are of the opinion that boozer needs to be a legit 2nd scoring option in order for the bulls to win a title. if they manage to win one without him being a legit 2nd option, then im sure acceptance will follow. until then, people will probably trash his lack of inside scoring and his no-shows against good teams.
or until howard comes. (hits self on head)
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
Ok, but what makes you think he can meet this standard that you've set for him?
He’s been a good player since he’s been here, not great. He plays very well against weaker competition, and is kind of a mixed bag against better teams. That’s what he’s been. It’s not that I think he’s been great, but the complaints are getting old because he is what he is at this point. He’s not gonna turn into Chris Bosh overnight. We missed that train.
People just need to accept the fact that the situation is what it is. He’s not gonna live up to that contract. He’s not the post scorer that many thought we were getting. He’s a jump shooting pick n roll player that plays with a point guard that doesn’t like to pass out of the pick n roll. It’s not the best fit, but we’ve made it work so far. Our bigs need to be looked at as what they are: a group of very good players, that collectively make up for some of the shortcomings of other individuals.
And unless we get Dwight Howard it’s gonna be this way for a while.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
yeah, except he seem to like the "roll" part about 7,000x more than the "pick" part.
and that “roll” looks like hes wading through a swimming pool.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
Well whatever, my point reamains
people keep wanting to hold him up to this superstar level, but he’s not that. He’s just a good player at this point. Things could be a lot worse. How about this, let’s play a game, let’s say we didn’t sign Boozer last year, consider everyone else that was available up until this point, and tell me a better alternative.
(and don’t forget in any trade scenarios we’d have to GIVE UP something, which means our depth would take a hit. Plus we have the amnesty, so Boozer’s contract really doesn’t hurt)
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
it takes a superstar to put up more than 10 pts a game against our biggest
eastern competition? It takes a superstar to outplay Lavoy Allen? I think JR could come up with a better alternative – keep his damn money.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
Why aren't we saying all these things about Noah then?
He got outplayed by the same frontcourt. He’s been just as hit or miss as Boozer this season…
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
I have criticized Noah, pretty painfully, including last night
but Noah is younger and has a greater chance of turning his game around. He also isn’t failing in what the Bulls are paying him to do – defend. Boozer is failing as a 2nd option for the Bulls AND he is a sieve offensively.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
I guess we just have philosophical differences
The fact that Noah can turn it around, is the reason I feel more of a need to get on him. With Boozer, it’s just kinda “whatever”
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
I don't get why you're not getting this.
Even if Noah is failing as badly as Boozer is, which he isn’t, he isn’t getting as much heat because it’s not as big of a concern. Noah’s defensive presence can be replaced by Taj or Omer and the team will still be fine. However, Boozer was brought here for one reason and one reason only: to ease the scoring burden on Rose by getting easy buckets in the post/half-court. He’s failing in that department and isn’t making up for it any way, and to make things worse there’s nobody else on the team that can do those things.
It’s not as if I know Boozer very well and he’s personally wronged me; he’s just a much bigger source of problems for this team than Joakim. And then when you actually watch the games you see that even when he’s not performing up to par, at least Jo is trying as hard as he can. Meanwhile, Boozer, even when he’s been scoring this season, has been doing so in the most lazy, stupid way possible, shooting fade-away jumpers like he’s Kobe or something. And his defense….well I don’t need to get into that. Kendall Gill did a good enough job shitting on that portion of Booz’s game last night.
I’m going to catch heat for saying this, but I think that this Bulls team can’t win a title with Carlos Boozer playing heavy minutes. It just can’t be done. If Howard comes here, it’s a different story, but so as long as he’s not here, this team will not bring home trophies with Carlos Boozer.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
Everything you said might be true
but I still don’t see what better choice the front office could have made in free agency. I don’t see what they could have done to make us a better team at this very moment. Nor do I see how the Boozer contract is a huge roadblock. If Howard wanted to come here. It would be great to have a guy like Boozer here so that after we make the trade, we can still field a competitive team.
They brought Boozer in here to be another scorer, and a rebounder, and he has done those things. He may not be doing them in the way in which you like him to, and he may have performed poorly on the big stage, but for the most part, he has given the team what they wanted
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
This is getting sick already.
How can you say this
and then this?
Are you trying to tell me that the Bulls signed this bum so he can produce against the dregs of the league and then disappear in big games in the regular season and Miami? Because that’s exactly what you wrote.
You can’t see what better move the front office could have made?? Being that the vacancy at PF has been an issue forever, they could have done a few things other than sign Booz:
1) Traded for Z-Bo, who cost the Grizzlies a grand total of 1 Quentin Richardson.
2) Gone after the right player in Utah the year before they signed Carlos. Millsap is killing it right now and would be a major upgrade at the 4.
3) Signed David Lee. He’s not a star, but he’s better than Carlos.
I don’t have time now to look back at everything that happened in free-agency that season, but they could have also decided that Boozer wasn’t worth the money and gone out and try to have signed/acquired a real 2 guard to pair up with Derrick and then just started Taj at the 4.
Carlos Boozer is a bust. GarPax fucked up badly with this guy; he doesn’t fit with this team, not attitude-wise and not playing style-wise.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
And let me say, I am NOT sticking up for his performance yesterday
I even said in the threads he was the worst player on the floor. But this amnesty talk is absolute horseshit
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
why is it horseshit?
by your own account we are paying a declining player, who isn’t a net positive against good teams, a huge amount of money. Can we not find a better way to spend that money? I’m not saying Boozer needs to go. But he needs to play better or he needs to go. There are only a few ways to dramatically improve this team in the coming years. Amnestying Boozer is one of those options.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
No, we can’t. That;s the point. We are over the salary cap. Trust me, if we could amnesty Boozer and replace him with a better player, I would drive his ass to the airport myself
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
c'mon dude. The bulls could be far more creative than that
especially with some of their assets (young players, expiring deals, mirotic, draft picks). Somehow teams over the salary cap manage to improve themselves every year. I’m not going to buy into believing we have Boozer for the next 3 years b/c we are over the salary cap and have no choice but to keep him on the team.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
Ok, but they don't have to actually amnesty him to do any of these creative things
They can amnesty him whenever the hell they want. If something comes along, then you can pull the trigger
But more importantly, I fail to see how amnestying him helps them acquire more players in any situation? The amnesty is just a way to lessen the burden on the cap. Unless amnestying actually puts us UNDER the salary cap (by a fair amount) it’s really of no help to the basketball team.
Any of the trades or creativity you’re referring to can be done just as easily WITH Boozer remaining on the team. I guess what I’m trying to say is, amnestying Boozer will never be anything more than a way for Reinsdorf and co. to avoid the luxury tax, or lessen the luxury tax hit they’re taking.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
you can always make trades that put you over the cap
but under the tax. I’m not going to go through examples. To act as if this team is somehow stuck with the burden of Boozer is taking it too far. We’ve all seen teams make moves while being over the cap – exhibit A the Dallas mavericks.
According to you, not only are we stuck with him, but he isn’t ever going to play better, we should keep starting him and never criticize him. This is a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
The Mavs are a bad example
The reason they’re able to keep doing things is because they have an owner that doesn’t give a shit. He’ll keep adding money no matter what. He wouldn’t be able to get rid of Boozer either. It just wouldn’t hurt him as much because he would find ways to spend his way around it.
It’s not like i’m making up this situation, the facts are the facts: with the way our cap is situated, there is simply no benefit to amnestying Boozer for at least the next couple years. And even then, the only benefit will likely be to help them re-sign Taj and/or Asik (this is why Dwight Howard threads still aren’t as popular as they should be)
As for that last part, yeah, we are stuck with him. And no, he’s probably never going to get any better. But I’m not endorsing him, or saying he’s off limits to be bitched about, I just find people’s expectations of him kinda silly.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
I disagree
and just because you say its a fact doesn’t make it so.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
I said the "facts are the facts"
because the following statement was fact. Not that I think everything I said there was a fact. Trust me, I’m well aware that I’m wrong a lot
(nor do I know a lot about the salary cap, but it doesn’t take a genius to see what our situation is. Does someone else wanna back me up here?)
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
btw
if the Bulls amnesty Boozer and don’t pick up the options on Brewer, Korver or CJ, they would be under the cap next season
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
Fine, but by how much?
And what would you do with that money? You’d be gutting the entire team. You’d need another backup pg, as well as another wing. Then you’d have to actually find a player that is better than Boozer
(also, don’t forget that Asik is a restricted free agent this summer)
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
keep changing the goal posts
They would be about $10 million under the cap. They could go over the cap to resign Asik. I don’t feel like planning the Bulls hypothetical future. I’d rather Boozer just play better.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
How am I "changing the goal posts"?
You just laid out a situation and I responded. I don’t see how doing what you just said helps us at all. You would have to tell me what we could do with that limited cap space, and how we would fill the holes that were created by letting those players leave for nothing in return.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
You're right I did say we can't get under the cap
But I should have clarified that we can, but it’s just not very realistic or smart to do so. I mean, of course we can release a bunch of guys and amnesty someone to get under, but there’s still no chance of it actually happening, or helping
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
yeah but they wouldn't have enough
to do anything worthwhile, and then you’re out 4 players…
Jaina - February 2, 2012
meh
Rose, Hamilton,Deng, Taj, Noah, Asik, Butler are the foundations of a 50 win team with or without those 4 guys. The only reason you would be amnestying boozer in the first place is because you don’t believe you can win a championship with his play. If you really believed that, than I would have no problem with the Bulls trying to reconfigure the team to improve.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
What's the "reconfiguration" though?
All I see is the same team minus a a frontcourt player with a 20 PER. Where are you replacing that production? (or let me guess, EVERY player in the league is better than Boozer, right?)
You could accomplish the same reconfiguration simply by sitting him occasionally.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
You can't have it both ways.
You can’t say Boozer is this marginally good, declining player who we can’t expect more from in big moments and than turn around and say how are we going to replace his amazing production. Either he carries his 20 PER into games that matter or he isn’t having the impact you are claiming that he has. We can beat the Wizards and Pistons without him putting up 18 and 8. This is about beating good teams.
When evaluating Boozer, PER is besides the point. Because the criticisms of Boozer are about defense and his play against quality opponents. By the start of next season, Taj will likely be better than Boozer. He is a jumpshot away from being better right now. At that point, what use is Boozer to the Bulls? If taj develops a jumpshot, what role does Boozer play?
As far as the configuration of the team, they can trade those expiring contracts at draft time, they can draft a back up pg, they can sign a former Nugget, they could pursue Eric Gordon – who knows. The point is that cutting those players doesn’t look so bad when you look at the Bulls young core and you realize there is still flexibility to add more and increase your ceiling if Boozer is cut.
I mean, for all intents and purposes, if we keep Boozer, the Bulls likely will cut at least 1, possibly 2, of CJ, Korver and Brewer anyway to avoid the luxury tax. Not amnestying Boozer coupled w/ resigning Asik will likely cause us to lose or have to replace some of the bench mob anyway.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
To your first point
I’ve always maintained that Boozer is productive, this is nothing new. And he can absolutely be productive, while still being somewhat disappointing. Just because he plays well against crap opponents doesn’t mean what he provides has no value. And he’s played well in plenty of games where he was needed, or against good teams.
And like I’ve said all along, unfortunately, he’s gonna have to leave for people to realize that there really aren’t many players that we’re gonna find that are gonna be better than him. It’s very hard to find good bigs. That’s why they’re paid a lot. It’s one of the main reasons our record is so good, and was so good last year. We have a very good frontcourt. Boozer is a part of that.
As for your second point, you still haven’t shown me one way that amnestying Boozer helps us. Eric Gordon? Even if the Hornets wouldn’t match our offer (which they most certainly will), we wouldn’t have enough to give him the contract he was looking for.
And any “reshuffling” can be just as easily accomplished with Boozer still on the roster
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
I've already said I'm not
going to play the game of configuring the future bulls. If you don’t see how a team with Rose, Hamilton, Deng, Taj, Noah, Asik and Butler and $10 millions of expiring contracts and another $15 million under the tax can make themselves better, than, okay.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
No, I don't.
Can you? Because you still haven’t told me how
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
The biggest problem with amnestying Boozer is that there isn't really any financial merit
Because once you butt up against the tax again you really are just paying the tax, and we know Reinsdorf doesn’t want to do that.
Let’s say the Bulls cut everything they can, get under the cap, and then use that space to re-tool and get back to exactly where they are now. You’re still paying Boozer 15 million every year, which means you’ve basically signed a player to go 7 million over the cap, and are paying the additional luxury tax on that contract. Obviously it doesn’t have the long-term ramifications of the raising tax rates and all that, but it’s still not ideal for someone like Reinsdorf, especially when you can just keep him and hope he can give you a few points and rebounds off the bench.
jpm356 - February 2, 2012
this
i mean what would even be a realistic bid on boozer, 5 million at the most?
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
that is a different question of whether
or not you could improve the talent on the Bulls. Financially, for an owner, it never makes sense to amnesty anyone.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
Agreed
And that’s why I think the amnesty for Boozer only comes into play if and when you are forced to deplete your depth and assets to get a top flight second banana like Howard.
Ideally, if you can get Howard for say Noah, Taj, and Asik plus Mirotic and the pick, I think that’s a situation where you realize that Boozer’s contributions aren’t outweighing the importance of depth, and use the amnesty to fill that hole.
Other than that, I don’t really see a way in which amnestying Boozer really can be used to improve the talent without going way over the cap.
jpm356 - February 2, 2012
Exactly
Even if you do well, you’d still be running in place. To make the next leap as title favorites, and yearly contenders, we’re gonna have to find a way to get another superstar. Amnestying Boozer doesn’t help that.
Personally, I think the front office is gonna give the team this year to see what they can do (unless Howard wants to come here). If they can somehow win a title, amazing. But if they struggle in the playoffs, and lose to the Heat again, or lose to someone like the Pacers or Sixers, I think you’ll see them take some risks. Maybe go after someone like Monta or something
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
I was under the impression that amensty is off the table for now
and that it was only during the first couple weeks of the season or something, and will be available again near the beginning of next season, etc.
SidM - February 2, 2012
Correct, there's a specific point in every offseason when we can do it
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
You're under the correct impression.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
as i mentioned in my fanpost about boozer, my rationale for keeping him is that
he seems to be the only big we have with the requisite skill to “go off” in the playoffs and really increase this teams’ chances to win a title. but at some point, for me to keep believing that, itd be nice to see him do it during the regular season against a couple elite teams.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
aalso, i really hate the "well, hes part of a larger entity called 'the bigs' who all have their merits so dont criticize him" argument.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
Why? That's a good argument
Because people like to act like Asik and Gibson don’t have flaws just like Boozer. I’m just pointing out that they’re all flawed, but combine to form a damn good frontcourt
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
the argument only works for someone who is already in Lowered Expectations Land.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
Umm, yeah, that's my point. We should all be living in lowered expectations land with Boozer
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
because hes a taj gibson caliber player but with different strengths?
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
See, this is why I prefer complaining about Derrick at times
because I see things he does wrong, and I get angry because I think he can and WILL get better. THAT stuff is frustrating to me. Same goes for Lu, or Jo. I’m critical, not just to whine, but because I can see that there’s room for improvement.
With Boozer, the writing is in the fucking wall, people. He’s just not gonna be what we were hoping. He’s not a big time post player, and his defense is always gonna be sub-par, particularly against quicker teams. I guess I just see no need to complain about it.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
frankly, i think the odds of my criticisms making boozer better are about equal
to the odds that yours make the young guys better. and as far as “need” is concerned: are you familiar with the concept of catharsis?
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
well that was an error. ah well, not worth repeating, its not like either of us are goiing to change.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
Well, I can promise it's not that I think my bitching will make anyone better
I guess it’s just that, like I said, bitching about Boozer feels like lazy piling on, to me. He’s just not as bad as people are making him out to be
Also, I am the king of catharsis. I have years of game thread blowups to prove that point.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
boozer....lazy....same sentence....must...resist....piling on....with...obvious joke.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
I guess I'm just more optimistic than you.
for shame.
your friendly BullsBlogger - February 2, 2012
if he can't meet the standard he needs to be traded or amnestied
I’m not going to give a guy making $15 million a year a pass, I’m sorry. Really, all i’m asking is that he plays with some aggression. That he doesn’t let Lavoy Allen and Thad Young (a sf) guard him. If I accept the fact that Boozer is going to be mediocre than I might well accept the fact that the Bulls aren’t going to be a championship level team. I don’t see why its so hard for the psuedo-Boozer defenders to say Boozer needs to play better when the Bulls face tough competition. I’m not saying he needs to dominate the post. I’m saying hit a jumper, do pump fake and put the ball on the floor, get to the free throw line – DO SOMETHING. Be aggressive.
And btw, there is no good fit for Boozer. There is no place he could go and be better. Its not anyone fault he is playing mediocre but Boozer. Its not Thibs, Rose, Noah or anyone else. The guy gets open shots. He has all the opportunity in the world off pick and rolls (or rolls since he ain’t into setting picks no more). Oh he may be able to put better numbers somewhere else. But no championship level team is going to build an offense around getting Boozer layups at the rim. There is no better place for Boozer. I guess we are seeing why Utah fans were so happy to be rid of his ass.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
This is just reactionary and stupid. What the hell does amnestying him get us? So all the people that are disappointed in him can say “FUCK YEAH!” for a minute, then watch him go help some other team out? As for trading him, good luck with that.
He has not been a bad or lazy player, he’s just fucking slow and in today’s NBA, that gets exploited a lot. Yet, a bunch of meatball people want to equate that to laziness. If we let him go for nothing, you can bet your ass we’d miss him
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
JBJ, I don't know what you want
but I want some of the stuff he is doing against Milwaukee and Washington (20 and 13 and 18 and 8 respectively, on a combined 17-31 shooting) to show up against Philly, Indy or Miami. Because those are the teams that are threats to us, not Milwaukee or Washington. Apparently this is too much to ask, so it may be pointless to continue this conversation.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
I want the same thing
My point is just that I don’t think we’re gonna get what we want, BUT that doesn’t mean he has to be amnestied, or complained about every 10 minutes. He’s still helpful, even though he’s disappointing. And that’s the best way I can sum up how I feel on the topic
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
I'd confused
That doesn’t even sound right. He’s not even being helpful. I’d go as far as to say that he’s part of the problem. You know what your argument for leaving Boozer alone because he is what he is the same as? It would be the equivalent of having Glibert Arenas at SG hoisting up 20 shots a night, scoring 10 ppg and every blue moon against the Raptors going off for 25 points. But letting him slide because of the player he use to be.
Yeah that’s where we’re at with Boozer. GarPax is no different than Orlando for having a hasbeen on the roster who’s contract is ridiculous but trying to justify it. Boozer should be benched, traded, or amnestied and they should just admit they made a mistake. I’d go as far as saying that we can’t win a Championship with that guy starting at PF.
Dils - February 2, 2012
Boozer is helpful
He’s not a jacker. He’s just overpaid. his passing out of the post, jump shot (when on), and rebounding, are all very helpful. He’s just prone to poor performances like last night that people get all worked up about because the money he’s making. Meanwhile, if Taj started, he’d have just as many clunkers. We’re just kinda stuck with him, and that’s not THAT bad of a thing (Please come to Chicago, Dwight)
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
This is why Boozer needs to sit. Even Noah knows it
Dils - February 2, 2012
actually, ive never been on the "start taj" bandwagon however much
ive ripped on boozer, but this discussion with you is starting to make me lean that way. and i dont mean that in a snarky way at all, its just that youre right, the bigs are all pretty similar in impact, they just have different abilities. however, i do think taj’s defense (moving his feet, protecting the rim, switching onto smaller guys w/o being burned) is more reliable while boozer’s skill are inherently more volatile. volatility is more suited to bench guys i think. also, both boozer and noah were more prolific defensive rebounders before they shared the same team, which tells me there is some appreciable redundancy there and the DRB% dropoff for the starters wouldnt be as great as you might think.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
See, and this where I think it gets out of hand a bit
Boozer is better than Taj. Taj is easily the more “volatile” player. Sure,. his defense is fairly consistent, but he can also be a black hole offensively that can’t rebound for shit.
Boozer’s in the right role. You start him, see what he brings you offensively, and depending on your needs in that particular game (rebounding, scoring, defense), you substitute accordingly
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
See I don't agree with this
I think a lot of the defense of Boozer is built on this simple assumption but I think it’s wrong. I don’t think Boozer is better because of what YFBB and Moon are saying. His value is only based on his offensive production and that alone. His rebounding is pretty much neutralized by the fact that Noah can grab those same rebounds.
Defense is a premium in this league and it’s not to be minimized or marginalized by offensive production. Taj is one of the best defenders in basketball period. So I don’t see how the blanket statement of Boozer being better can be applied here.
Dils - February 2, 2012
Boozer is a better offensive player, a better rebounder, and a better passer
In order for Taj to be better he would probably have to be the best defensive pf in the league, and Boozer would have to be a total zero defensively. As it stands, Taj is a great defender, while Boozer is merely average, to slightly below
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
hes not better than taj.
theyre just different.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
I think you make a good point
Boozer can also act as the focal point for the bench mob’s scoring. He’d also do well against bench competition.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
I actually hope it does happen, just so people can actually see that it doesn't help at all
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
that'll show us
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
I'm just saying, it won't help anything
This is like a Bears backup QB thing, we’re the anyone and everyone is better than the guy currently starting. Taj has shown me nothing to think he can be a better pf than Boozer.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
You may feel like you're one man arguing against the world here
But I’m totally on your side. If Boozer made $5m less, a lot more people would be happy for him to be on the team. And soon, Taj will be off his rookie contract and the salary discrepancy will not be as big. Maybe that will be when people finally realize that while plenty overpaid, Boozer is not a net negative on this team and you can’t get better simply by getting rid of him and being able to do nothing with the money since we’re over the cap already.
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
Thank you, summed up very well
His contract has made for some very unrealistic expectations. Meanwhile, it’s really not all that bad
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
I think we all wish he made less money so that his production was more closely in line
with the money he was being paid. But like just about every other team, that isn’t an option. If the FO can figure out a way to either trade him or amnesty him such that it helps the team out, great. But until then, blindly suggesting we amnesty the guy without a plan to replace his production is silly.
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
I should have said,
just like nearly every other team with an albatross contract (probably 2/3 or more of the NBA).
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
its not about money, its about winning a championship
if Boozer made $5 million less, I’d be on here talking about trading him for a guy who makes $5 million more and arguing the Bulls could absorb the salary.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
To an extent, I get that
But we’re not in that world, so tell me how amnestying Boozer will help the team.
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
I don't want to amnesty boozer
i want him to play better against good teams.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
if he can't play better
and he continues to decline, all options should be on the table. I completely reject JBJ’s opinion that we can’t do anything about Boozer so we should just shut up and accept it.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
I'm not sure if this is JBJ's viewpoint exactly
But my stance is that I agree he’s an issue, except it being brought up and hashed out every single day is annoying and a waste of time.
We know its an issue and that we’d be a better team if he were performing better. The odds of him taking a step forward at this point in his career are slim, so let’s assume that this is the Boozer we’re going to get going forward and talk about some other stuff instead to keep things interesting*.
*Perhaps we can even discuss rational ways to trade or amnesty Boozer (along with a plan of how to improve the team) to make the team better. You might not be from the group suggesting we just “amnesty Boozer!” to fix things, but there are plenty who are.
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
Couldn't have said it better
And I keep asking you (smurf) how we can get better by amnestying him, and you have yet to answer. Just cause we’d have a little capspace, doesn’t mean we will use it on something to get better.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
Honestly, I don't believe there
is anything I could write to satisfy you. I could lay out a plan to get Eric Gordon and you can say it won’t happen. I could plan out a trade to acquire Randolph, and you’d just shoot it down.
I’ll just say, if the Bulls aren’t a championship team – which is what the whole premise of amnestying Boozer is based off of – than their is absolutely no risk in amnestying him. None. If the Bulls can’t win a championship with him on the team, who cares if they win 60 games or 57 games during the season. Who gives a shit?
So if the Bulls can’t win a championship with Boozer, I don’t see the harm. You could resign Hinrich, sign J.R Smith and sign Kenyon Martin with that cap space, resign Asik and call it a day.
Rose/Hinrich
Hamilton/Smith
Deng/Butler
Taj/Martin
Noah/Asik
is a 55 win team and without Boozer’s untradeable contract weighing it down. Same number of young assets. Still has Rose and Deng and Noah. And because we don’t have Boozer, we could still afford to package those young guys for an all-star. We’d have more flexibility, better defense and more athleticism. So if that is the worst case scenario, than I’m okay with it.
Or Boozer can just start playing better.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
How do we get Smith, Hinrich and K Mart
for what someone else estimated would be around $10 mil in cap space?
Also, Boozer is a much better player than Kenyon Martin, why would we want him?
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
That's bullshit
I’d absolutely give you props if you came up with something solid. In fact, I like the players we’d be bringing in in that trade, I just don’t understand how you think we could sign them all with under $10 mil. Those guys are all AT LEAST getting the full mid-level
And if we can get them for that cheap, I’d rather just ditch Brewer, sign JR Smith to a mid-level contract. Keep CJ (fuck Hinrich), and keep Boozer. Worst case scenario, Taj is better than K Mart at this point. We could just bench Boozer and start Taj
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
The idea that people shouldn't or
won’t talk about a player who sometimes costs the Bulls games and could cost the Bulls a chance at a championship in a post game thread following a game where he played like crap doesn’t seem very realistic to me.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
Obviously not
I don’t think anyone should stop being critical of Boozer.
The thing that I find annoying, is that any game we lose, all the threads quickly turn into this huge Boozer pile-on session. Everyone just wants to blame every fucking thing on the guy. It gets VERY old imo.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
He is not the guy that you want him to be
He is NEVER gonna be that guy. He’s not a defensive minded big man, and he doesn’t get a lot of easy baskets posting up. Everyone can see that this is not the player he is, why do we have to keep harping on it? If he’s killing our D that bad (which most nights he isn’t) then we bring in Taj. End of story.
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
If you don't want to talk about it
than stop replying.
Basketball Smurf - February 2, 2012
You do know we could win with Boozer
If other players on the team were better too, right?
I could bitch about Kyle Korver’s D and Asik’s free throw shooting, and Brewers inability to make the 3 all day long, but that would get annoyed. They’re all flawed players (every player in the league is, for that matter) and the team would be better if ANY of them improved.
Replacing Boozer with someone better (and not just Taj and an empty space) would definitely help the team. So would replacing Korver with JR Smith or Brewer with Iggy, but those scenarios are just about as unrealistic as your Boozer for Smith/Heinrich/K-Mart scenario above (who from that group is going to be taking the vet minimum?).
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
Get annoying*
Must proofread before hitting post.
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
He was posting up last year
So either he lost something, and is a much worse player than we were planning on getting, or he’s lazy. Either way it’s not good.
tuluse - February 2, 2012
You know what annoys me?
Boozer defenders continually talking about how annoyed they are about Boozer getting criticized. It’s like Boozer defenders actually believe they have truth and public opinion on their side. Like all these pesky Boozer bashers just don’t understand the game or something.
You know it’s quite possible that some people that believe Boozer should be amnestied believe that the team would actually be better without Boozer. So if that’s the case, yes you can make the team better without him
Dils - February 2, 2012
Yeah, they act
like it’s insane to think that the team would be better off with Taj playing 30+ mpg instead of Booz. Well……Thibs thinks that way a lot too, especially in big games where you often see Taj out there and Booz glued to the bench in crunch time.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
Yeah it's all about that cotract
There’s no way that a guy who gets his jollies off of his defense would be starting Boozer unless it was about the money.
Boozer’s play and lack of consistency screams of less minutes and bench play.
Dils - February 2, 2012
I wouldn't call myself a Boozer defender at all
Except, I don’t think the team is flat out better with amnestying him since we’re over the cap already. If you could find some way to put that amnestied money to use, sure.
My bigger point was it was fruitless for every single Bulls thread to talk about how much Boozer sucks. It’s going to be hard for him to go anywhere, and the guy is certainly trying pretty hard, so I don’t know what you expect to come of all the bitching.
madcow256 - February 2, 2012
I thought that everyone knew that booz's D was gonna be bad, since the signing
He’s still bad but he improved this year on D a lil bit, until this game in which he just…Ugh
T.Moore - February 2, 2012
the size of the thread under this commment makes me want to create a fanpost written
“Boozer sucks. Comment”
JustAnotherFan - February 2, 2012
just make it happen
JustAnotherFan - February 2, 2012
stop giving me false hope!!!
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
Lookin Sexy!!!
RED_BULL - February 2, 2012
Wont happpen
He wants to go to the Nyets. His buddy Keith Bogans is over there
T.Moore - February 2, 2012
hes gonna roll with keith!!
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
"character issues"
-gar
Belize - February 2, 2012 via mobile
Dwight Howard sure filled out that Kirk Hinrich jersey well.
Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. - February 2, 2012
he probably will have to change his number to play here
JustAnotherFan - February 2, 2012
Good news; Bad news
The good news is that Butler is very promising. He plays very smart/mature for a rookie, and obviously has skills. I am particularly impressed by how rarely he bites on fakes by opposing players. In fact, other than Rip, I’d say that he’s already the best on the team in that regard. He should play more, and be encouraged to be more aggressive on offense.
The bad news is that Thibs hasn’t developed much on the offensive side. Yes, the Bulls have been playing through injuries, and Rip and Deng are crucial to any success. But there are strong hints already that Thibs is continuing to over-rely on Rose, and not develop creative alternatives. For example, while some of the criticisms of Taj are fair, the fact is that he is the team’s only reliable low post threat. He is far more effective around the basket than shooting his (awful thus far this season) mid-range jumpers. Yet despite that rather obvious fact, very few plays are designed to feed him down low.
Paul Warfield - February 2, 2012
I think we were starting to really develop as an offensive team, and then all the injuries happened
Now we’re basically back to being last year’s team all over again. The thing that gives hope is that, when healthy, we have the potential to be much better
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
I don't disagree...
but creativity should not be totally player dependent.
Paul Warfield - February 2, 2012
actually, for creativity to work, it needs the right players...
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
Well kinda, I mean it is a sport that you can only have five players on the floor at one time
Losing two out of the five is bound to have pretty drastic repercussions. Particulalry against the better teams in the league
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
exactly, i wish people would stop shitting on thibs as a offensive limited coach
hes not and whem rip and deng were playing together, our offense was firing on all cylinders.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
I see...
so when there are certain players on the floor, he’s a good offensive coach.
Got it.
Paul Warfield - February 2, 2012
same can be said of other great offesnive coaches
if you have players like brewer and korver starting, you are going to have problems
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
awww, not the hot sauce.
TheMoon - February 2, 2012
I accept that, especially given injuries...
there are limitations to the pieces that Thibs has to work with. But that is not an excuse for failing to develop creative plays/schemes no matter who is on the floor.
I mentioned Taj above. I see no excuse (given the right match-up) for not creating isolations on the low post more frequently. I’d also argue that he should use CJ or even Lucas with Rose more often, and get away from the same old song of the latter being doubled, finds an open man outside of the 3pt line, gets the ball back, and then there are 10 seconds for him to create a shot or hope that someone breaks free, etc.
Paul Warfield - February 2, 2012
that's kind of how it works.
i’ve always wanted to see how great phil jackson was if he had to coach the fuckin grizzlies.
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
same can be said about greg pops, riley of the 80s lakers etc.
you can never find one coach that lead a team with limited talent to the finals.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
ridiculous...
no one is – or was – talking about taking a team to the finals. The discussion is about maximizing (offensive) talent on any given team. It could be a last-place team and the discussion would still be meaningful.
The Bulls are obviously an outstanding defensive team. It is equally obvious that they were ousted by the Heat last year primarily because of an an over-reliance on Rose offensively. That was due partly to the make-up of the team, and partly to Thibs’ (unsurprising) limitations as an offensive coach.
The Bulls have addressed the personnel issues to an important degree by adding Rip. It is also clear that the staff has tried to get Rose to distribute more. Those are positive steps. But there are still plenty of reasons to worry about a possibly over-reliance on Rose – especially during crunch-time of big games.
Jackson and Popovich have forgotten more about offensive coaching than Thibs knows at the moment. The question is, will the latter’s learning curve be sufficient to get the team past the Heat?
Paul Warfield - February 2, 2012
well, we did see when deng and rip was healthy that rose would actually utilize them in the 4th Q
for instance, in the 4th Q against the hawks (i was at that game), rose and deng combo worked liek a charm and it was the main reason why the hawks couldnt stop us. If deng is healthy along with rip, there is no doubt in my mind that rose and those two will be taking over the 4th, NOT JSUT ROSE BY HIMSELF. The thing is without rip and deng the BULLS HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DEFER TO ROSE IN THE 4TH Q. You can tlak about optimizing the offensive schema, but the fact of the matter is that the bulls currently are limited in the players to help rose to take over the 4th Q.
Btw, my point above bout going to the final regards maximizing offensive talent based on the right schema. Why were jackson and pops successful? Its b.c of they were able to use their offensive strategy based on the RIGHT PLAYERS WITH THE APPROPRIATE SKILLS SET.
Bottom line is thibs cant do much with this current team on offense. If you think taj is the answer helping rose on offense, im gland ur not the coach. Taj is damn good defender, thats it! He cant score for shit. Hes an undersized PF who lacks the ability to do well against good teams on offense. Also, Thibs did try out CJ and Rose yesterday but of course it wasnt enough. You gotta get real and realize there isnt much you can do without deng and rip.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
so...
This is the crux of our disagreement. To you, it’s apparently black and white. To my eye, Taj is actually a good low post player, and is being grossly underutilized by Thibs.
I admit that I am not a fan of falling back on numbers, but it’s still worth considering these:
Gibson has an “Inside” eFG% of .689
That is higher than Boozer, and Noah’s is .505
Gibson’s foul drawing is 16.4%, twice that of Boozer and significantly higher than Noah.
Those numbers, to my mind, simply confirm what I have seen: namely that Taj is clearly the Bulls’ most effective low post player. The problem is that he is used in such a way that it is much more common for him to receive a pass in mid-range jumper territory, essentially encouraging him to take a much lower percentage shot. Why doesn’t Thibs design plays for Taj to isolate (against the right opponents), and feed him inside?
I can’t think of a reasonable excuse.
Paul Warfield - February 2, 2012
yeah, it incenses me to see taj floating around the perimeter.
he should never take a shot more than 8 ft. ever.
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
Scoring inside doesn't imply low post play
Taj gets a lot of cleanup buckets and buckets off cuts to the basket. That is not posting up.
tuluse - February 2, 2012
yes, but he also posts up...
and pretty darn well, given how few chances he is given.
Paul Warfield - February 2, 2012
This
he’s a great finisher when you get him the ball very close to the ball, but he can’t create his own shot
Stacey_Is_King - February 2, 2012
Paul Warfield - February 2, 2012
Oh man, losing to the Knicks would suck soooooooooooooooooooooo bad
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
The bright side is that it would lead to the inevitable banning of sin
if he loses control.
Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. - February 2, 2012
Oh well
Win-win eh?
T.Moore - February 2, 2012
I cannot wait
jpx7 - February 2, 2012
as long as Boozer gets his double-single
we really have no complaints
your friendly BullsBlogger - February 2, 2012
that's not even nice.
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
Lol, so true.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
Is Baron going to be playing?
pb&j - February 2, 2012
Nope, not from what I've been reading
Not til next week
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
they said he wants to make a big splash in his debut
going up against Drose is suicide. It will probably against some scrub team with a scrub pg
trig - February 2, 2012
Oh, he'll be making a big splash alright
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
the fear I have
is kyle and ronny not being able to contain melo, and boozer vs amare(but I think that may be a wash, amare is not really able to stop boozer
gooses - February 2, 2012
wait, didnt they say deng will be back by tonight?
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
I thought it was the bucks game
gooses - February 2, 2012
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/chi-hamilton-deng-out-vs-76ers-20120201,0,533340.story
not really, he might be back tonight
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
ahh, thanks. I feel much better.
lets hope he is the same deng.
gooses - February 2, 2012
his non-shooting arm is injured
i think hell be fine. If anything, he should have fresh legs tonight.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
i'd let carmelo jab step his way to 40
if the bulls shut down everyone else.
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
They do have Amare Stoudamire and we have Carlos Boozer
not a sound strategy
dsenchi - February 2, 2012
eh, put noah on amare and boozer on tyson.
tyson still can’t shoot, right? i haven’t been paying attention. and for christ’s sake, if boozer can’t hang 25 on stoudemire..
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
Boozer doesn't hang 25 on anybody.
Even when he’s scoring 25, it’s not on anybody. It’s off of jumpers when guys trap Derrick on the PnR.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
sin won't stfu about it
T.Moore - February 2, 2012
When Boozer gave up that wide open dunk/lay-in
and was just standing there on the other side of the key, I punched a wall. True story. And my hand still hurts because of it.
If Carlos Boozer suffered a season-ending injury tonight against New York, I’d celebrate, and I’m not kidding in the slightest way. I’d hit up Cuvee and buy bottles for the whole fucking place, max out my credit cards, whatever, even if the Bulls lost by 25 and DRose posted 8 points, 2 assists and 7 turnovers. I don’t care anymore, I never wanna see Boozer play for the Bulls again.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
wow, thats going to far
im not going to argue bout booz nor defend him but thats just harsh.
Geo4MVP - February 2, 2012
It's plays like that
Which convinces me you can’t win a title with Boozer as your starting pf.
RogersPark Kris - February 2, 2012 via mobile
When I heard Shaq say it ~ 1 month ago,
I thought he might be just being Shaq and going over the top, but he’s spot on. I know I’m not crazy with this Boozer stuff, plenty of people on this site see it, as do all my friends. When I mention the name Boozer, nobody really has anything positive to say. The best people can come up with “he is what he is and it’s not worth complaining.” Well, that’s bullshit.
dakoose - February 2, 2012
Not cool to risk an injury on anyone
Period…(Unless it’’s Foster)
T.Moore - February 2, 2012
or rondo?
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
Too far with the injury stuff. Stay classy.
Dils - February 2, 2012
lol
at Noah looking at his paycheck pregame.
We continue to have issues with long, fast, athletic squads. I don’t feel anyone should get a pass for last night. It was one big collective pile of shit…players to coaches.
NormVanBeer - February 2, 2012
That team is basically our worst nightmare from a matchup standpoint
I think people need to take a deep breath here, and look at the big picture. The Pacers game sucked, but we were right in it with a passive, hurting Derrick and no Luol. I’d bet my life that we’d beat those guys in the playoffs. The Heat game sucked, but again, we were in their building, and without Lu. Also, they’re the fucking Heat, we all knew it would be hard to beat them, nothing has changed.
Now, the Sixers loss was scary, but like I said, they are a matchup nightmare, PLUS we didn’t have two starters. We’re still gonna be right in the thick of things come playoff time if we’re healthy. No time to panic yet. Now, if we lose to the Knicks….
Juiceboxjerry - February 2, 2012
preview from the preview I'm writing for Saturday:
the worst team we’ve lost to so far is Indiana. That’s pretty good.
Prevenge - February 2, 2012
"yes, I was quite proud of my pre-game tweet"
I think you should be much prouder of today’s twitter gem:
jpx7 - February 2, 2012
not a defense
an indictment.
obnoxious american - February 2, 2012
That depends
On how one feels about high-schoolers.
jpx7 - February 2, 2012
well it's phrased that way on purpose
so that it’s an indictment, but a snarkily awesome one.
Prevenge - February 2, 2012
Boozer
will be fine once Deng or Hamilton come back. Neither Brewer or Korver are better passers than Deng and Hamilton. So that’s means less ball movement and less skilled offensive players the defense has to actively guard. Taj is a better finisher and defender than Boozer but doesn’t have one move go to move in the post yet and he probably won’t ever develop one. Boozer is the better shooter, passer and just as effective defensive rebounder.
squadron supreme - February 2, 2012
*one go to move in the post
squadron supreme - February 2, 2012
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