The numbers are down for Carlos Boozer. This you already know.
The per game numbers are down, as Sam Smith wrote in a post called "What should you expect from Carlos Boozer", but so are the percentages and inside-to-outside shot attempt ratio. I can buy Smith's call to not fixate on Boozer not being a "20-10" guy because:
Only twice in eight seasons before the Bulls signed Boozer did he average at least 20 points and 10 rebounds in a season.
[...]
In both those 20/10 seasons, Boozer averaged about 35 minutes per game, far more than he plays with the Bulls. He also averaged 16 shots per game those seasons with the Jazz, almost 25 percent more shots per game than Boozer attempts with the Bulls now.
The mistake everyone makes with Boozer is the same mistake you see often in sports, and not only with fans but team managements.
They sign or trade for a player and want him to be what they need or what they want him to be rather than who he is.
Those two 20-10 seasons where Boozer played a career high in minutes for any other two-season span where back when he was 25 and 26-years-old; he just turned 30 last November. Smith implied that Boozer's offensive production is proportional to his career averages per 36 minutes and -- though the numbers are slightly down -- he's about right:
| Season | Age | Tm | G | FGA | FG% | FTA | FT% | ORB | TRB | AST | PTS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2009-10 | 28 | UTA | 78 | 14.8 | .562 | 5.2 | .742 | 2.4 | 11.8 | 3.3 | 20.5 |
| 2010-11 | 29 | CHI | 59 | 16.2 | .510 | 4.7 | .701 | 2.5 | 10.8 | 2.8 | 19.8 |
| 2011-12 | 30 | CHI | 16 | 15.5 | .525 | 2.6 | .697 | 2.1 | 10.0 | 1.7 | 18.0 |
| Career | 585 | 14.6 | .537 | 4.6 | .725 | 2.9 | 11.1 | 2.7 | 19.0 |
Smith's points that what fans, observers, and analysts did expect from a 29- and 30-year-old Boozer is greater than that of the production from his younger days with the Jazz. But no one with eyes, half-a-brain, or access to Hoopdata.com can say it's irrational to expect a big money power forward who took 63.8% of his shots within ten feet of the basket in Utah in 2010 and 62.2% in his first season as a Bull to select his shots better than taking only 42.4% of his shots within that close range through 16 games of this 2012 season.
Smith quotes Boozer as saying that Joakim Noah being closer to a 'true center' than his former Jazz teammate Mehmet Okur, changing the ways he finds space off the ball:
"The middle was open for me and D Will to do our thing. It's different playing with an actual center in the middle.
"You've got to pop, either roll into traffic or pop," said Boozer. "I like it. We have space to move because I can shoot the ball and we have guys who can shoot the ball. It also gives other guys lanes. Look at Derrick. I'm poppin' (so) he has space on my side to drive to the hoop. Luol the same thing. That's why our jump shooting becomes so important. And we're winning.
[...]
"Our team [is] made up differently. [...] It's going to vary because we're a more talented team. This is one of the most talented teams I've been on aside from All Stars and Olympics. I don't have to carry the load. Derrick is shooting less (down about three per game). Our team is better. It's more a collective group."
There are points from Boozer worth keeping in mind as the season develops. And points on how Noah and Rose use space are incredibly valid.
But they don't excuse the fact that Boozer is one of the best in the game at establishing position in the low post without the ball and has the physique, moves, and passing skills to dominate down low more often than many in the NBA -- and he isn't utilizing that strength. Far too often, that positioning is recognized. Instead of backing his man down to get a higher-percentage shot or draw help to create an open man on the perimeter; he gives his defenders a pass by not charging closer to the basket, but taking fadeaway jumpers.
This is what was not expected of Carlos Boozer.
He's currently shooting 62.3% on 5.3 shots within ten feet and 45.2% on 7.3 shots at ten-plus feet per game this season. Adjusting his 2012 location-based FG% to the 2010 rate of shot selection within ten feet to eight per game and 4.5 from beyond, his FG% goes from his current .510 up to .560 -- almost exactly where that also was in 2010 (.562).
And he says the 'jump shooting is so important'. Au contraire, mon frère.
He doesn't jump as well as he did in Utah and his limitations are much more pronounced from playing through a turf toe injury last season. But he still has moves to create easy buckets and establish position, as proven by his 24.6% defensive rebounding rate -- his lowest since 2005, but still an indicator of using horizontal space well to win vertical portions of the game.
Boozer shouldn't be expected to be a 20-10 guy because of what his career tells us. But he should be expected to make higher percentage decisions because of -- well -- what his career tells us.
2 recs | 154 comments
This is awesome
I think there’s a real concern to Boozer’s play, and it’s not enough to just say ‘well, it doesn’t matter HOW he gets his production’. Of course it does. The scary thing is that if Boozer’s lift is truly gone (and mind you, there’s no reported injury with him like there was at the end of last season) fadeaway jumpers and quick-flips at the rim isn’t because of some mentality, it’s literally how he has to play to get his shot off.
I guess you could reason that maybe it’ll be actually helpful to learn old-man tricks now before the defenses tighten up in the playoffs and he wouldn’t be able to use his power game anyway?
I also had a quibble with the tone of Sam’s article, just sort of the resignation of it. Like I could just as easily be reading something in June saying ‘well, did you really expect the Bulls to go to the Finals?’ . And I guess, no, I don’t expect them to, but can still be disappointed if they don’t, and similarly so that Boozer is what he is now and likely getting worse.
your friendly BullsBlogger - January 19, 2012
I absolutely think his lift is gone
the only times you see him go up strong at the rim is when he has room to step into and gather himself for the jump. when he establishes position already close to the rim, he barely gets off the ground after a post move/ jumping off two stationary feet.
seriously, for a guy who was never super-athletic to begin with, this is painful to watch. so for all the griping about him not posting up down low more, maybe he just can’t, or at least not as often as before. i’ve just about resigned myself to be happy with whatever the Bulls can get out of him, sans the screaming. but I will admit his D has improved some this year, so his struggles are not for lack of effort, I don’t believe.
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
What's lift got to do with posting up?
He’s never been a leaper and he’s undersized at his position. Playing in the post does not require crazy athleticism; to the contrary, it requires very little of it. You need to have strength, decisiveness and the ability to finish within five feet with either hand while taking contact. Boozer has all of those things, yet I can’t remember the last time I saw him back his man down, turn over his right or left shoulder and flip in a short jump hook. He can definitely get that done with his current set of tools.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
Exactly
I watched a guy smaller than him with less athletic ability in Dujaun Blair get position in the post and go up strong near the basket. The issue is that he’s settling on that fade away jumper by default as his signature move.
Dils - January 19, 2012
Dejuan Blair has to be among one of the league leaders in getting his shot blocked
Basketball Smurf - January 19, 2012
Well yeah, he's an undersized big man so that's only natural.
Ozzie Montana - January 19, 2012
that was in response to Dils saying he watched Blair get post position and
finish. I’m just saying its not a routine occurrence, because Blair’s shot is always getting blocked. So its a bad example to try to attack Boozer with.
Basketball Smurf - January 19, 2012
No it's not
because my point is that someone with less athleticism than Boozer is able to gain post positioning. So some believing that Boozer lacks the athleticism to get on the block doesn’t make sense. Now what Blair is able to do with the ball afterwards has nothing to do with what Boozer could be able to do with the ball
Dils - January 19, 2012
Boozer occassionally posts up
your seeing Blair post up once is in no way dispositive of how he usually scores his points. I suspect that Blair scores most of his points off offensive rebounds and assists from other players drives.
Prove to me that Blair has some type of post game. Just seeing it happen once proves nothing. I mean would you be happy if Boozer got post position and than shot 30% from the field?
Basketball Smurf - January 19, 2012
Well you can't have it both ways
If I show you a game where he did (Against Miami scoring 10 points in the first qtr) you can’t negate it because it’s the “one time” he did it. Fact is he did it and his doing it that much in one game is more than what Boozer has done at any point this year.
This isn’t really about Blair, it’s more about proving that Boozer doesn’t have to have the athleticism of Blake Griffin to have a post up game. Hell when’s the last time Elton Brand jump out of the gym? But he can still roll to the basket or display a post-up move.
See that’s the point. Boozer’s first move is to turnaround and face the rim. Well what kind of threat from your frontcourt player is that? How is that affecting a defense and how they guard Rose? So our fates are at the hands of if Boozer is hot from 15 feet out from game to game? No he need to display more variety and if Blair can get his little ass on the block, I’m sure Boozer still can.
Dils - January 19, 2012
When was the last time anyone feared Elton Brand's post game?
That is the point.
I can negate because he wasn’t posting up. He was catching passes off the pick and roll or off other player’s drives and finishing. He wasn’t exhibiting a true post game. 5 of his 6 baskets were layups. He was assisted on all 6 of his scores. Correct me if I’m wrong, but what you want is for Boozer exhibit a one on one post game, correct? I’m pretty sure Boozer can still catch and finish. Boozer is shooting 62.7% at the rim, 75% of which are assisted. Blair is shooting 62.2%, 76% are assisted. The only difference is how many shots at the rim the Spurs offense creates as opposed to the Bulls.
Basketball Smurf - January 19, 2012
Regardless, Blair is shooting 55% from the field and is getting 11/6 in just
23.5 minutes per game.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
I don't understand what Blair's stats have to do with the argument
Blair’s numbers don’t prove he is a post player – they prove he is efficient at scoring the basketball.
Basketball Smurf - January 19, 2012
He’s just mad that the Bulls passed Blair twice and that our first round pick is in Canada.
docks - January 19, 2012
ohhhhh caaaaanadaaaaaaaa
our country tis of theeeeee
Prevenge - January 19, 2012
It shows that even while getting blocked quite a bit in the post,
he’s still efficient scoring the ball…..primarily out of the post.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
And Boozer is getting 15/8 on 52.5% in just 29 minutes....
I’m not sure if you’re against Boozer here, or if you’re just saying, but DeJuan Blair is no Carlos Boozer.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
I was just saying that's its still very possible
to shoot a high percentage while working out of the post as an undersized PF.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
Are you serious?
Obviously athleticism has a lot to do with someone’s ability to play in the post. If it didn’t, Tim Duncan would still be averaging 20 pts a game.
Boozer’s inability to jump means that he can’t “finish within five feet with either hand while taking contact.” If he backed his man down, turned over his left shoulder and flipped in a short jump hook that shit would get thrown into the 2nd row because he can’t get lift or separation. If it was easy as you make it sound, everyone would be doing it. Boozer has never been the type of player to back his man down and just kill them with post moves. He is not Kevin Mchale. His lack of explosion, speed and height are going to make it tough for him to score at the rim against good defenders.
Basketball Smurf - January 19, 2012
You can't compare Duncan and Boozer.
They each have gotten their points differently throughout their careers; Boozer more with muscle and Duncan more with finesse and his height. Duncan right now can’t create separation because he’s too slow to utilize his old array of post moves. Booz still has plenty of size/width and can create separation with physicality.
Your second point would be valid if he were going up against DeAndre Jordan every night. But I’ve seen him fall back on jumpers against guys that aren’t that tall or explosive. He’s had his chances against David Lee, Blake Griffin, Z-Bo, Speights, Jerebko, KLove, Chuck Hayes and Amir Johnson. Those are guys you don’t need to be afraid of blocking your shot.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
Are you really saying Boozer is a more physical player than Duncan?
Or that Boozer ever had a more developed back to the basket game? We will have to just agree to disagree on that.
Right now it looks to me Boozer has to worry about anyone who can jump blocking his shot. I agree he should go to the basket more, but acting as if his diminishing athleticism doesn’t effect his ability to get off shots at the rim seems crazy to me.
Basketball Smurf - January 19, 2012
I think you could make the argument that Boozer's back-to-the-basket game (particularly his footwork) is more polished than Duncan's
Duncan’s obviously way better, but that’s because he’s way bigger.
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
It does affect his ability to finish,
but it shouldn’t be such a factor that he kisses that part of his game good bye and becomes a jump shooting, euro-style big.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
I mean, I do remember him doing more of it in Utah
and in his good stretch last year he was having success in the paint because honestly he does have some assortment of post moves and is quite good at finishing with either hand. he was scoring with quick spins and leaners in the post and with slashes to the rim off PnR action with Rose.
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
He has all the moves in the world but teams are wise to a guy who can't jump.
Without a quick first step or the threat of putting the ball on the floor you’re not going to get a lot of defenders to bite on those pump fakes or spin moves. If the Bulls don’t get him in motion then jumpers is all we can pretty much expect. But from what we’ve seen when Rose and Hamilton are on the floor the ball movement and spacing is better and Boozer isn’t just waiting for the dump off pass.
Ozzie Montana - January 19, 2012
I agree
ultimately, as a shooter, Boozer knows how to find his spots on the floor. Rip as a good passer only helps this.
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
I remember him rolling to the basket more
dunking more and taking his guy off the dribble more. I don’t remember him having games where he just ate someone alive with his back to the basket game.
Basketball Smurf - January 19, 2012
sure
not saying he did for entire games, but I think it was more involved in his repertoire. either way, I guess I’m content with whatever he can add to winning, as long as he scores and boards.
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
The ability to finish at close range while taking contact requires lift.
Ozzie Montana - January 19, 2012
right
this is what I was trying to say. it’s more difficult to score from cloe if you’re not getting up to the rim while absorbing contact. plus most defenders on Boozer are going to be taller than him being that he’s barely pushing 6’9". working in close confines in the post just doesn’t give him room to get impulse to jump any higher. you can see it too. his finishes at the rim are either quick flips or him trying to get away with a quick spin move.
I think some of you might be oversimplifying what it takes to score down low, especially for a (barely) 6’9" PF with little Athleticism.
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
what is the requisite amount of lift needed?
docks - January 19, 2012
I believe Howard Hughes might have an answer...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_6ca60ormE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
1.21 gigawatts.
Ozzie Montana - January 19, 2012
"a bolt of lightning!"
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
ask Jackie Wilson
SidM - January 19, 2012
It's to the point where I am actually pleasantly surprised when he finishes near the rim.
But, that just might be who Booz is at this point. If that is the case we will just have to hope his jumper is stroking in the playoffs.
His defense is bad, but at least with my own eye test, I’ve thought it hasn’t looked as atrocious as it was last year. Anyone else agree, or maybe I’m just seeing what I want to believe?
bleigh82 - January 19, 2012
Yes, and no...
eFG% is the same as his FG% cuz he doesn’t shoot 3s (maybe he should start trying? Not on a Korver level, but he seems like he’s got some range on that shot). His FG% is down with the Bulls compared to his career average. His Rebounding % is down as well. As is his Ast%. And ORtg.
Strangely, his DRtg and Stl% are up, while his TO% is down.
All of this is while his USG% is roughly the same as his career norms, but his MPG is down significantly.
I’m also noticing that he’s never once played an 82 game season. And only twice has played 70+ in consecutive seasons.
Maybe this is just a different Boozer than he was with Cleveland or Utah?
Doshi - January 19, 2012
i still dont buy the argument that boozer has to post up to be productive
If hes able to get 20 plus points consistently off of just jumpers, im not sure why thats a bad thing, i dont get why its better to have boozer play in the post and get double teamed, or bang in the post enough times where he ends up injured (again) or continues to suck in the post the way he has all season.
A part of me thinks that boozer shooting jumpshots and being more of a high post player helps rose FAR FAR more than him owning the paint. With rose they can now run a high screen and fade or pop, and that forces the decision. if the smaller guard switches onto boozer, boozer can either shoot over him, or rose can simply out quick the big. If the Big man stays on boozer, well thats one less big rose has to worry about on his attack to the rim.
Also its not like boozer should shoot 100% of his possessions. In the suns game, despite him being so hot from midrange, after he got going he started finding ways to get some buckets inside as well. Not to mention the fact that it was solely due to boozers hot start that the suns had to abandon man and go to a zone, which stacey pointed out had all kinds of holes that the bulls easily exploited.
Also boozer hitting his jumpshots made life easier for noah, who only had to fight off one big to get an offensive board as opposed to having two bigs trying to keep him off the glass.
I think the biggest concern becomes streaky nature of relying on jumpshots exclusively, and maybe im naive but i refuse to believe that thibs plan for boozer is to exclusively shoot jumpers. But if shooting jumpers allows boozer to score enough where defenses are more taking account for him, allows him to hide any injuries or prevent them, allows rose and noah to have more room for their executions, then im not sure i see whats wrong with that change in his style of play.
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
Because you don't want your easy-bucket guy's shot selection dominated by 45% shots.
Alex Sonty - January 19, 2012
i long abandoned the idea that boozer was our easy bucket guy
maybe thats my problem….
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
But you accept Boozer's a higher percentage closer to the basket, since he can't shoot 3s, right?
Alex Sonty - January 19, 2012
Funny
Rose takes almost as many jumpers, and according to 82games.com, they go in 40% of the time. Don’t hear anyone bitching about it though.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
Apples and oranges
Besides, in addition to taking as many jumpers as Boozer, Rose also gets to the rim and to the line a lot more.
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
maybe he meant 'hilarious'
your friendly BullsBlogger - January 19, 2012
Well why doesn't he take the higher percentage shot everytime?
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
Because no player's good enough to get to the rim literally every time he has the ball.
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
Guess you shouldn't be complaining about Boozer then.
Rose percentage of shots inside: 34%
Boozers: 31%
I know, it’s apples to oranges, but Rose still takes waaaay too many jumpers, and I don’t here anybody complaining.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
Rose's shot selection is a completely independent subject from the topic at hand
You’re basically saying that because Rose takes too many jumpers, it’s okay for Boozer to do it too.
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
No
I’m not condoning it for either of the two, I’m saying that people just flat out hate Boozer, and he really can’t do anything right in their minds.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
can you find a high scoring perimeter player who takes, say, 40-45% of his shots
inside? i find wall, tyreke evans and ty lawson. well, two of those guys suck, so its pretty much just ty lawson, and i doubt he could do that if he were the primary perimeter scoring option on his team.
if it makes you feel any better, the main issue as i see it is what boozer is doing now naoh should be doing, but he cant since he cant shoot. and the close-to -the-hoop space noah is occupying should be boozer’s. so to me the main issue is boozer and noah dont fit at all.
TheMoon - January 19, 2012
actually i did not realize the bulls' PG takes fewer jumpers than the bulls' 260 lb PF, and that IS funny.
TheMoon - January 19, 2012
This comment pisses me off and shows you know very little about basketball or are choosing not to display it.
First, for Rose to get a shot off at the rim, he likely needs to dribble from 25 feet away from the basket, past his defender, and past several other big men. I have seen Boozer post up one small step out of the lane and choose to take a dribble back and fade away from the basket, when he could have used his 250+pound frame to back in 1 dribble and make a post move. Second, if Boozer absorbs contact from a a giant like Dwight Howard, he takes far less of a physical beating than Rose does (remember those times Howard put Rose on his ass and he was out for the game). Rose is 6’3 and way up in the air when he attacks getting smacked around by 270-300lb post players. This takes an immense physical toll on him. Third, Rose can take three pointers and hit roughly 33% of them. This is the equivalent of hitting 50% of 2 point shots. Fourth (and perhaps most importantly), there is a difference between a power forward and a point guard. Boozer currently ranks 19th among PF’s in attempts at the rim. Also, despite being assisted on 75% of his makes at the rim (7th highest percentage in the league) he is only converting 62.7% of those attempts which ranks him 22nd! Rose on the other hand ranks 6th in attempts at the rim. He takes about 34% of his shots at the rim. As was said below, only 3 perimeter players take a higher percentage of their shots at the rim. Rose is only assisted on about a third of his shots at the rim and yet still manages to convert 64% of them! That ranks him 4th among PGs who take at least 5 shots at the rim. This is a stupid comparison. You can’t just compare a post player to a perimeter player. Rose is also forced to take last second shots more than anyone else on the Bulls. But let’s pretend that you could make the comparison. The most valid way to compare the effectiveness of their shot selection would be by TS%. Rose’s TS% is 55.5%. Boozer’s is 54.3%. Despite being the focal point of other team’s defenses, Rose is scoring more points per shot (oh, and this doesn’t take into account Rose’s 8+assists, but this is shot selection so fine). This is dumb. Stop talking.
DRoseO1 - January 20, 2012
Plus
We need our bigs to draw more fouls.
RogersPark Kris - January 19, 2012
Well....he isn't able to get 20+ points consistently off of J's.
If he were able to, most of us wouldn’t be so upset with him. He has only three 20+ games this season, and they came against Phoenix, Detroit and Orlando. In the latter, it took him 19 shots to get 20 points.
The concern with Boozer is that people don’t have faith in his ability to consistently get points from 15 feet out. Additionally, in tough playoff games, particularly against Miami, you need a good source of points outside of Rose, and Boozer from outside isn’t going to cut it.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
i think the problem is
i feel boozer is done as a post player. Hes missing easy buckets inside even when he puts on a good move, he’s too injury prone in the sense that i think if he ever had a great game on the inside, in this shortened season he would probably end up either sitting the next game or just playing bad cuz he aggravated some injury, and when he does play inside he doesnt get to the line or get doubled enough for it to matter. Ive seen more plays of boozer put on some moves on the inside, get bumped, miss the shot, then while the opposition is running down the court he stares down the ref like “cmon ref” all the while our defense is at even more of a disadvantage.
And maybe the suns game isnt the ideal game for boozer, but i think he has a better chance of setting up some easy inside buckets using his jumper as a set up, and really, the jumper hasnt looked that bad.
Also, when we got boozer, rose was nowhere near the scorer he is now. I think it was important to have that post player scorer before roses drastic increase in ability. I think at this point its more that rose needs constant options, rip, deng, boozer even if just jumpshooters, give rose plenty of options and opens up the paint a bit more. If teams are gonna continue to wall up against him, someone will always be open, and to me if they can constantly catch and shoot that helps rose.
I should also add, or maybe emphasize, that i dont want boozer to be exclusively a jumpshooter, but i think in order for boozer to be worth anything on this team he has to produce, and whether its fts, jumpers, or post moves, so long as hes producing its a plus. Right now i dont feel hes capable of producing in the post by just setting himself down there and going to work. I think that jumper is gonna open up far more options for him to go to work down low or get fouled, or just keep the floor open for the constantly moving rose, deng, and rip.
Also, as mentioned above, boozers primarily been a pick and roll option in his career, and rose really is not all that great at the pick and roll, and so utilizing boozer in a pick and fade or pop option might help both more ( i figure the reason rose isnt that great at pick and roll is because his explosiveness forces defenses to pack the paint, and so the roller, especially a softee like boozer has no chance of ever really scoring, while the pop and fade are always available due to the walling of the paint)
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
I agree with a lot of that.
All I want, however, is some more post-work from Booz. If you all are right about his inability to play down there, whether it be because of his height, lack of explosion or anything else, then I’ll get off it and just admit that he’s pretty much done as a legitimate, go-to scoring option. He’s kind of done with that anyway, but I’ll change my stance from him being done because he’s lazy and soft to him being done because he’s done.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
Boozer was effective last year in the post...
The Bulls need someone to be a go to post player and having a forward or center do that is for the best. Without someone trying to get position and get close looks/taking it to the rim, the offense becomes perimeter oriented/guards and forwards driving to the rim and Rose is excellent at that but it becomes one dimensional (like a football team without a running game).
If not Boozer, who would be the go to guy for the Bulls down low trying to get post position?
mjtig - January 19, 2012
Nobody else, and thats why Boozer not being what we thought he was hurts so much.
When Noah’s struggling, Taj and Omer can pretty much step right in and give us what Noah gave, perhaps even more. And even though Booz may not be what we need him to be, he’s the only guy on the roster even close to capable of being that guy, so if he can’t do it, we have nobody else that can.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
I see, but going by that, I would think Boozer is the best option...
might as well have him fighting for position and trying to get to the rim when he can and mix in that good jumper this year. He is strong enough and quick enough still even if he does not have the lift to do some of that and he is good going to his left or right which will keep the Bulls more balanced.
mjtig - January 19, 2012
I agree 100%.
I’ve been among the hardest on BaB on Boozer since he got here, and I absolutely want him to go down low and mix it up a bit down there. I hate that he’s become a jump shooter first and big man second.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
yep
Belize - January 19, 2012
you aren't scoring as efficiently taking jumpers
No team wins a title with all jump shooters. Having a guy that posts up not only is more efficient offense but it would be that second guy we’ve needed to create his own offense. Working from the post also draws double teams and racks up foul on the other team.
Remember how many times we’d go cold shooting with the baby bulls team? And then we all wished we had a low post threat when that happened. Jumpshots don’t win titles.
sin - January 19, 2012
to be fair
the baby bulls never, ever, had a guy capable of scoring like rose. Rose is far more dangerous on his drives to the basket, and id like it more if the paint was less clogged for rose to get those efficient points you talk about. Hes gonna be the one drawing doubles and tripples, hes gonna be the one getting the effective fgs in the paint, hes gonna be the one drawing fouls. I think this will eventually create a situation that will allow boozer to go into the paint and score with much softer defense.
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
that sounds good in theory but what happened against miami when they doubled and tripled rose?
no one could score when jumpshots didnt fall.
sin - January 19, 2012
well
we were starting bogans, boozer was definetly injured at that time (and not shooting jumpers might i add) noah was a bit injured at that time, rose was tired, rip hamilton wasnt on the team, and you know what, i honestly dont think the bulls were ready for the contributions of udonis haslem, who killed the bulls with HIS midrange jumper and gritty work
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
The bogans argument is such a cop-out.
Our problems were at the end of games when Bogans was squarely on the end of the bench. Our Problem was that when they doubled Rose, We had no one who could take the bail out pass at the top of they key and create offense 4v3 quick enough before the defense re-set itself. If Hamilton can be that guy we can start getting much better shots off of the derrick double teams and because of his Ast % I really think he can be that guy.
However, Boozer cant post up Haslem, Anthony, or Bosh effectively. So he basically becomes a Bigger Taj Gibson, who can shoot better jumpers. So it comes down to the defense of Taj vs the rebounding and jumper of Boozer for who plays at the end of games. And that is a problem when one is being paid 2-3 million and the other is a 14+ million player with 2-3 more years left on his contract.
Krandle - January 19, 2012
actually, having either bogans or brewer playing is complete suckage FOR THE WHOLE TEAM
you have no idea how big a difference having a solid player like rip on the team. He spaces the floor and makes the defender burn energy just chasing him around. Having a SG who can score a big deal. If you basically have only 4 players who can effectiely score, it makes it easy for a great defensive team like the heat to EFFECTIVELY DOUBLE TEAM ROSE and at the same easily recover (whenever I watch the 2011 ECF matchup, the heat are so good in rotating on defense) to guard whoever rose passes to.
Look, Im not excusing Boozer and Noah for their poor performance in the playoffs last year, but having Bogans/Brewer as the SG option is SHITTY. I respect their defensive expertise, but we needed a SG badly last year and at th end, it costed the bulls a trip to the finals.
Geo4MVP - January 19, 2012
He just needs help creating better looks.
The best play I’ve seen all season is when Rose drives to one side, drawing defenders, then dishes to Boozer basically at the free throw line with no defender in the middle ‘cause they’re either way on Rose’s end or one guy is defending a perimeter player on the weakside. And Boozer doesn’t even dribble, just takes two giant steps to the hoop for a lay-up and sometimes an and-one.
They have ran this with Gibson too and it’s brilliant (sorry, I don’t know basketball terminology that well, this play prob has a name and it’s prob much more common than I think).
The point is, Boozer by himself cannot get these kinds of looks, so he settles for the fadeaway when they straight up give him the ball and say “make a play yourself,” but he still can be aggressive enough when the opportunity is there to be a finisher.
I don’t know, run more plays to find him an easy lay-up is I guess what I’m saying, but that’s so obvious and can work for almost any player I probably don’t really have a point at all. But isn’t that a fun play, guys?
Micdiddy - January 19, 2012
I think many people expected that Rose and Boozer would wreak havoc on opposing defenses with the pick and roll.
As it turns out Derrick, while good at many other things, is not the best pick and roll point guard out there. Also, as stated above, with Noah or Asik along with their defenders clogging the paint, Boozer is forced to take more fade away jump shots in order to score.
MrBungle - January 19, 2012
I agree
He doesn’t have much room to operate, he is wide and short-armed, (you cant yell people out of the paint) with less room to operate, the drive and dish from rose is boozers best weapon. Maybe, the thinking could be, to utilize boozers mobility (lack there of) is to have him take those shots and have Noah get his offense on the boards. He usually can out hustle any big man.
AKbluebulls - January 19, 2012
Key word is...
usually.
Micdiddy - January 19, 2012
"you cant yell people out of the paint"
GIMME DAT PAINT!!!!!!
jpx7 - January 19, 2012
yeah, I'm not sure how much is on Rose/Thibs, or on Booz not rolling hard often enough
It’s possible it’s just not in the Bulls playbook or Derrick isn’t comfortable making that pass. But first Boozer rarely actually sets a screen, and his usual next action is to now go farther out as opposed to rolling hard to the rim. And again I wonder if part of that is because he knows he can’t get his shot off as well anymore at the rim.
your friendly BullsBlogger - January 19, 2012
I think that if Thibs was bothered by this in any way
we would see Booz try harder
JustAnotherFan - January 19, 2012
Personally...
I don’t think he wants to get hurt. He was doing all that post stuff last year until he got hurt by Kwame Brown.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
Rose is a shoot-first pick-and-roll guard.
He’s one of the best, but he usually uses the pick to get his own shot. However, the very best pick-and-roll guards, such as Chris Paul or Steve Nash, are equally likely to shoot or drive or dish on the pick and roll, and therefore impossible to predict. Most guards don’t have that perfect balance.
Tim S. - January 19, 2012
That was the case maybe 2 seasons ago. I can't find the ESPN article
But about a week ago it showed that Rose is shooting considerably less in pick and roll situations.
Ozzie Montana - January 19, 2012
Ask and ye shall receive
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35159/roses-sweet-game-continues-bulls-roll
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
Thanks! Choice quote:
“That said, Rose’s high assist total early this season is actually almost a near match for what he did in the first eight games last season, when he registered 76 assists. It will be worth watching to see if his pass-first ways continue. "
Tim S. - January 19, 2012
I think that was the case last year
This year, Rose has gotten a lot better at that little thread-the-needle bounce pass. However, Boozer usually choose to pop instead of roll, which I don’t necessarily think it a bad thing. I certainly don’t mind him taking those wide open 15-footers. I take issue with the contested 15-footers, which have nothing to do with the PnR.
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
To add to this further
Boozer’s top four lineups from last season in terms of minutes were very similar. His top two lineups were Rose-Bogans-Deng-Boozer-Noah/KT. The next two were Rose-Korver-Deng-Boozer-Noah/KT. The lineups with Noah scored 1219pts in 1103 possessions for 1.11 PPP. The Boozer with KT lineups scored 1071 pts in 973 possessions for 1.10 PPP. This was with Noah having a 57.9TS% for approximately 1.158 PPP and KT having a 52.7TS% for approximately 1.054PPP. I guess this doesn’t exactly go to show how Boozer played specifically in each of those lineups, but the production of those lineups was the same, even when Boozer was playing with a less efficient offensive player in KT. It may not be the best argument, but it’s something. I just don’t buy that “lane is clogged” argument. Do a basic up and under move once and awhile. Nobody is asking for a running jumphook across the lane, but try to get to the basket more, especially on the pick and roll.
Stats from basketballvalue.com.
Oh and more importantly: this move could be gotten off anytime he wants, especially when he is hitting the fadeaway. That’s a great post move.
DRoseO1 - January 19, 2012
The video is 6 minutes long...
mind narrowing down what move you’re speaking of a bit?
Micdiddy - January 19, 2012
lol
no doubt…
inkybreath - January 19, 2012
LOl
Crap. My bad. Apparently the timestamp didn’t copy. This link works
DRoseO1 - January 19, 2012
New link since I'm an idiot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WVED6z2gJrk#t=120s
DRoseO1 - January 19, 2012
I knew it was gonna be the spin cycle move
Can’t use it too much though – Stacey King would die.
Protocol - January 19, 2012
boozers toe would die first
or ankle….
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
I posted this in the other thread, too
There is something to the floor spacing argument. In fact, Pruiti had a post at Grantland about the effect of Chandler on Amar’e’s struggles this season, and it’s all about Amar’e now having to work in a more crowded space.
Here’s an excerpt (link above):
My point is, the same kind of problem could be causing Boozer to settle for jumpers more when Noah/Asik is in the game. I remember Boozer playing a some minutes at C with Gibson or Deng at PF, and I wondered what the five-man floor stats were with those lineups. I checked 82games.com, but I couldn’t find anything, presumably because the number of minutes played is pretty small.
My expectation is that Boozer may have performed better around the rim, though that could also be due to the other team’s small lineup.
bryield - January 19, 2012
this is pretty interesting
especially since boozers best scoring years came near the same time okur was having his best shooting years (efg)
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
Interesting thought
I wonder how effective it might be to have Boozer operate more as a 5 on the offensive end, with Noah playing more of a PF role, minus any real threat of jump-shooting.
jpx7 - January 19, 2012
I doubt it would help
since the threat of jump-shooting is the most important factor. You’re inviting a two big-man double team on Boozer if you position Noah further away from the basket.. Let’s be honest, that happens a lot no matter where you put Noah. Defenders aren’t stupid, if it’s a choice between giving Boozer time and space to work, or giving the same to Noah, it’s a no-brainer. It’s the reason that Boozer currently fades so much to the outside when he catches the ball in the low-post, since the opposing center is constantly helping from the inside.
runningman - January 19, 2012
Okay, let's say that spacing really is the issue
There’s a lot of implications if that truly is the case. First of all, if Kurt Thomas really was having a huge impact spacing the floor by hitting those 15-17ft jumpers, then letting him go was a huge mistake. He’s making barely over the minimum, and he’s playing at least as well as he did last year for Portland.
Next, if floor-spacing is such a big deal, than getting a floor-spacing big man needs to be a top priority right now. If Boozer and Noah truly can’t play well together offensively, than we really should be actively looking to move one of them.
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
bryfield makes a great point about noah clogging up the paint
Look, you just cant have two people in the paint and expect Boozer to operate when Noah is within that area.
You ask whats the solution to this problem. I got three words for you: Gibson and Boozer! Those guys gel well together and with gibson ability to hit the mid range jumper (not effectively), then I think Boozy can do well in the paint.
Geo4MVP - January 19, 2012
And that can mean more Jomer!
ColonelFatheart - January 19, 2012
I don't think the Bulls "let" him go
All the articles said that he was deciding between his options, of which the Bulls were one. He definitely had more guaranteed playing time in Portland than he did here. I don’t blame the Bulls for not promising him playing time over Asik. Asik is pretty damn useful too.
runningman - January 19, 2012
Money talks
They could’ve easily offered him double what Portland offered. Maybe they did and he turned it down, but we’ll never know.
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
I'm assuming from this post (and your post in the other thread)
that you’re referring to moving Noah, which makes sense considering Noah likely has a higher trade value than Boozer. But, putting aside whether any of them are worth trading Noah for, I’m not sure there are that many floor spacing bigs out there anyway…
bryield - January 19, 2012
spencer hawes
and i believe even byron mullins (not sure though) have face up games and could have been had for cheap, until the season started
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
Big Sexy is gone
but I still have hope: bring Sheed!
JustAnotherFan - January 20, 2012
more on the positive...
First, he is shooting over .500 on the short season, so I can’t go too crazy in the negative. More important, shooters create space for everyone else and he will pass the ball off. I am not so disappointed with 15 pts. 8 reb with the ability to flex up to 20 or 30 pts and 15 to 17 rebs…
Let’s not forget that we suffered (all due respect) a whole season with Bogans, and I think that just put more and more focus on what Boozer wasn’t doing and how he was doing it.
Let’s take Rip’s injury away this season and add his offensive production to the slate… I would guess that, assuming without the injury that his numbers would be up a tick, that he would be close to 15 pts a game on his minutes.
We might be feeling a lot better about the whole thang…
inkybreath - January 19, 2012
I think the lineup
with Boozer and Gibson in will help fix the spacing problems, as long as Boozer is just more aggressive.
I like almost every frontcourt, but I think this one is my favorite because it is potent on the offense and not easily exploitable defensively ‘cause Gibson has got Booz’s back.
Gibson won’t clog the lane like Asik and Noah do, and Gibson is an explosive offensive rebounder if Boozer does take the jumpshot.
Micdiddy - January 19, 2012
Another point
what if the jumper is more of a regular season thing (so obviously bulls organization cant really comment on it since its part of a gamplan thingy) to help keep boozer healthy through out the season and maybe skew the scouting reports of other teams, then in the playoffs when it matters boozer starts playing harder (and healthier?) in the post. I doubt its true, but id say thats pretty ingenious if it was
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
Meh
Could also be a Boozer decision. We have seen Rose do this several times this year. In the game where he injured his toe, he settled for jumpers until his team needed him to attack. I doubt it, but still.
DRoseO1 - January 19, 2012
The problem with this theory
is that Boozer would seriously be under-practiced with his post moves if he shelved them for a whole season and then tried to revive them for the playoffs.
I mean, he has to keep the moves fresh and know how defenses will respond and all that.
This may be a legitimate theory if he starts working a solid postgame into his reservoir like halfway through the season or something, but since I have simply never heard of a basketball player or a team try to slowplay a post player like this, I doubt it’s what’s truly happening.
Micdiddy - January 19, 2012
good point
i sort of doubt it too, but it would be pretty cool if that was the plan, now to look out for gradual increases in post play from boozer throughout the season
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
i would be more willing to buy that if we didnt just see his failure of a playoff run last year
sin - January 19, 2012
i actually was kinda basing the theory off that failure of a playoff run
(is getting to the ecf after not making it out of the first round the last two years really a failure?)
Boozer showed flashes of post brilliance at the start of the season, just to suffer toe sprains, and then never really quite recovered. So i wonder if the bulls arent letting him full heal and not injure himself in the regular season
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
When he had a toe injury?
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
He gets injured every year, we're past the point of making excuses.
Ozzie Montana - January 19, 2012
Not quite every year, but thanks for playing.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
uh dude...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boozeca01.html
hes never played an 82 game season…..ever….
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
That's an awful way to show that.
Neither has DRose, Ronnie Brewer, or Chauncey Billups. It doesn’t mean they’re always injured. He’s had seasons where he played 81, 75, 74, 81, and 78 games. That’s pretty healthy.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
they were also never out for significant amounts of time
sin - January 20, 2012
You're missing the point...
wrigleyrocker12 - January 20, 2012
He moves like a slug this season too,
and it looks like he can’t even touch rim anymore.
dakoose - January 19, 2012
And...
Lucas is really 6’6" . The Bulls are having him play shorter so that other teams will be surprised in the playoffs.
El Toro de Goro - January 19, 2012
Here is what I expect from Boozer
I expect him to be able to take a dribble and get into the lane. You usually see him get stripped when he tries that. I expect him to show a few more pump fakes and ball fakes. I expect him to not be so transparent when he is posting someone up; when he posts up, he either turns to face the defender and shoots over him or shoots a fadeaway from the post position. How about an up and under move from that fadeaway? People would bite on that, especially because he is undersized and cannot jump.
But most importantly, I expect him to be able to provide what is needed in each game to get us a win. I don’t really care about stats; I knew when we signed him that 20/10 was not realistic. I want him to play solid defensively and show enough diversity in his game on the offensive side that it helps other’s get their own shots.
I think that pick and pop move he’s been using may work out alright…as long as he doesn’t use it every damn time. When he comes to set a screen (aka “duck out early”) for Rose, DRose always draws the double-team, leaving Boozer open. When he moves into space and gets the pass, he usually knocks that down. He is a streaky shooter; give him 2-3 of those where he hits and he will be scoring 25pts that night.
We just need him to be…valuable. I think he benefits greatly from Rip being on the team. Boozer tends to find more open looks when defenders swarm both Rose and Rip. Let’s be honest, Booz was never that great. We just need him to show that skill set a bit more and play with some swagger. He always seems to be timid of putting something up near the rim because he cannot avoid the block as well as he used to. Someone needs to slap him and teach him a cunning move or two.
Brigade17 - January 19, 2012
Good comment.
I kind of agree. I don’t think we NEED the Booz we want in order to be a championship team. We need a Booz with reasonable expectations that he can produce decent numbers effectively every single night. I’m perfectly happy with a 14/8 boozer if he takes 9 or 10 shots to get that 14 and spends a lot of his energy on the defensive end.
We already know Gibson can play great and will cut into Booz’s minutes, this is something that Booz and especially Thibs need to accept and move on. We can definitely win a championship with two above-average PF’s in Booz and Gibson, again as long as they bring it every night and are effective in their looks.
Micdiddy - January 19, 2012
I think Booz and Thibs have already accepted it and moved on
They’re not the ones making a big deal about this. It’s some of the fans that are screaming bloody murder about why Boozer is sitting in the 4th, or how many points he’s scoring, or where the points are coming from. Thibs is going to keep starting him, and then sitting him whenever Taj is on a roll. Booz is going to keep “popping” instead of rolling to the basket, because he feels it’s a higher percentage play than rolling into traffic.
This issue is never going to go away unless the Bulls win a championship playing like this. That’s probably fair. All the talk of “ignoring stats and doing what it takes to win,” is less effective if you don’t actually win. The bad part, for me, is that wins in the regular season won’t count because they showed they can win in the regular season and still lose in the playoffs. So they could be perfect in the regular season and still draw heavy criticism because this is really preemptive griping about what people believe will happen in the playoffs.
runningman - January 19, 2012
While this doesn't directly address the Boozer issue...
Taj has improved this season and appears to be very effective around the basket. He is developing good post moves, and is quick enough to get shots off, get fouled, or in some cases rebound his own miss. I would really like to see Thibs increasingly use him in that capacity.
Indirectly, while the two aren’t on the floor together that often, when they are, I’d prefer Boozer to stick primarily to his mid-range jumper.
Paul Warfield - January 19, 2012
Taj is far from Boozers level on offense.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
You don't say?
Had you actually read my post, you might have noted that I asserted nothing of the sort.
Taj is, however, more effective right around the basket already, and he’s still improving.
Paul Warfield - January 19, 2012
You also might have noticed that I was just pointing something out, and never criticized you for saying so.
As a matter of fact, if I were to choose a Bulls power forward to give the ball too 5 ft from the basket, I’d choose Taj. Anywhere else, I’d pick Booz. The problem is, Taj isn’t nearly as good of a passer as Booz, and he’s much more prone to turnovers and holding the ball for far too long.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
I do like Taj's aggression in the paint. Someone on the coaching staff must have pointed out he's not a good jumpshooter.
Ozzie Montana - January 19, 2012
I doubt it, he still takes them more than any shot.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
OT: Is it poor form that I want to get a Bulls jersey but I’m too cheap to buy a current one so I’m going to spend like $10 on a Ben Wallace red one a friend is trying to get rid of?
MichaelClutchtree - January 19, 2012
Nah, that's cool. I once owned a Bill Wennington jersey.
You can always say you’re a “hoopster.”
ColonelFatheart - January 19, 2012
rockin a wennington jersey is like wear nike
rocking a wallace jersey is like rocking those champion kicks from Payless
Belize - January 19, 2012
cmon man
wearing a wennington jersey is like wearing old school chuck taylors, and im talking about real high top chuck taylors. It says “hey, i may not know whats in now, but i know the past, and old is gold baby”. Wearing a wallace jersey is like wearing those ben wallace shoes from steve and barrys, you not only not care about the game of basketball, the bulls, but obviously yourself either. Those ‘shoes’ were like wearing nothing at all, and not in the “its so damn light” way, in the “everytime i jump i take a year off the life of my foot” way
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
your right.
Belize - January 19, 2012
ok...wtf is that
its freakin creepy
piccolomair - January 19, 2012
anteater?
Geo4MVP - January 19, 2012
///
obnoxious american - January 19, 2012
If that's the case, why not just by a t-shirt jersey.
bleigh82 - January 19, 2012
because for the price i might be able to get this one for, it’s even cheaper than a t-shirt jersey
MichaelClutchtree - January 19, 2012
I had a Wallace jersey and I just took the name off
I should make it into an Asik jersey.
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
what do you do, just take scissors to the stitching between the letters and jersey?
MichaelClutchtree - January 19, 2012
don't ask how I know this or why I have one, but what you need is a seam-ripper.
if you know anyone that works with clothes, ask them for one. but yeah, very easy to get to the stitching and take those pesky letters off.
if not, go to your local Walmart or fabric store and ask for one. should be relatively cheap.
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
Are you sure?
I thought you needed an Amir Johnson.
Prevenge - January 20, 2012
reference:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seam_ripper
BULLieving in Miami - January 19, 2012 via iPhone app
It's funny how people criticize Boozer for his jump sjot and say Taj should start.
Well, Taj shoots jumpers way more than half of the time, and shoots them at 33%.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
thats cuz taj is younger, has less accolades and doesnt come with a 85 million bill
plus he i think he has more dunks. we like dunks.
Belize - January 19, 2012
plus i think*
damn google chrome
Belize - January 19, 2012
I'm not sure if that's an actual argument or not.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
i wasnt arguing with you
just saying why most people (like me) are disappointed with booz..granted i really never wanted him but when NY signed Stat and Bosh went to miami, i just jumped into “sign anybody NOW” mode
i hate myself for that..really i do
Belize - January 19, 2012
also, why i like taj more
granted if he was gettin “paid” if prob start analyzing him more..but for his price he just works harder imo
Belize - January 19, 2012
And I don't really like when people criticize someone because of their salary.
Those complaints should go directly to GarPax.
wrigleyrocker12 - January 19, 2012
eh
What can I say…just me man
Belize - January 19, 2012 via mobile
Actually Taj takes way more shots inside 10 feet than outside of 10 feet
Also, the fact that he gets to the line more than Boozer despite playing far fewer minutes is pretty telling. Taj is very limited offensively, but he’s at the very least very aggressive.
Poloplaya14 - January 19, 2012
why is everything so 'funny' in this thread?
your friendly BullsBlogger - January 19, 2012
It's funny you mention that, but now I see what you mean.
Sandberg's evil twin - January 20, 2012
Anyone has numbers about Booz play in the paint when he is paired with Taj?
I have the impression that he plays more inside when they play together.
JustAnotherFan - January 19, 2012
they actually work nicely together...
they have different playing styles, but they really complement each other. Thibs is starting to play it alot more and I think i would nicely with watson, rip, and korver.
Geo4MVP - January 19, 2012
I posted an around-the-NBA thread
for Thursday, January 19.
Tim S. - January 19, 2012
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